Would a Coalition Gov't Undermine Democracy?

Would a Coalition Gov't Undermine Democracy? (Read 3763 times)

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Dulcinea

#1 December 10, 2008, 01:49:18 am

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I noticed there was no thread about this, but it's been all over the news here...

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/11/28/f-faq-coalition.html

For those of you who don't know, Canada is currently going through a rough political time.
To summarize things, we have a minority government right now, and the opposing parties wish to form a coalition and govern the country together. Their argument is that the current government is ignoring the recession.

There's been debate lately about whether overthrowing the government would be undemocratic or not.

The first school of thought says it's undemocratic because the minority government was what was voted in.
The second school of thought says that the minority government may have been what was voted in, but a coalition between three parties would represent more of the country's votes.

I know there aren't too many Canadians here, but regardless (even if you're not Canadian) what do you think about the issue- and if you were to choose, which would you think was more democratic and why? Should it matter? Do you think Canada should allow this to happen?

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Lyndon

#2 December 10, 2008, 01:53:36 am

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haha, the second school of thought sounds like a ridiculous statement, unless I'm reading it wrong

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XxSylverxX

#3 December 10, 2008, 02:50:08 am

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the people that voted for the other parties voted for those parties specificly not a coalition of all of them, besides that this is a pretty shitty thing to do and i doubt it will go through. I might even support this if it was voted for and the bloc weren't part of it.

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Bled

#4 December 10, 2008, 02:54:11 am

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Sounds like a horrible idea. One of the things I really looked forward to about moving to Canada was the fact that there were more political parties to choose from than the bicameral legislative wad of fuck that we have here in the U.S. When it comes to running a country with democratic principles in mind then it's always a better idea to leave many options on the table. Simplify things too much and you'll find yourself choosing between the lesser of two evils just like we do down here.

The coalition would probably be capable of a lot more corruption than each individual party would be separately, also. It's kinda scary to think that you wouldn't be able to vote for one asshole without inadvertently supporting an entire collection of secondary assholes from different parties that he's associated with.

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Dulcinea

#5 December 10, 2008, 03:01:43 am

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Quote from: XxSylverxX on December 10, 2008, 02:50:08 am

the people that voted for the other parties voted for those parties specificly not a coalition of all of them, besides that this is a pretty shitty thing to do and i doubt it will go through. I might even support this if it was voted for and the bloc weren't part of it.

I forgot to mention the Bloc. I might have more support for the coalition if the block weren't in it. I don't want a seperatist in power. On the flipside, Ignatieff is replacing Dion so there would be a strong liberal leader. I've read a lot of his foreign policy and human rights papers, and he seems like he could do a lot of good. Ignatieff and Layton together are a strong political force.

Quote from: Bled on December 10, 2008, 02:54:11 am

Sounds like a horrible idea. One of the things I really looked forward to about moving to Canada was the fact that there were more political parties to choose from than the bicameral legislative wad of fuck that we have here in the U.S. When it comes to running a country with democratic principles in mind then it's always a better idea to leave many options on the table. Simplify things too much and you'll find yourself choosing between the lesser of two evils just like we do down here.

The coalition would probably be capable of a lot more corruption than each individual party would be separately, also. It's kinda scary to think that you wouldn't be able to vote for one asshole without inadvertently supporting an entire collection of secondary assholes from different parties that he's associated with.

Even though we have several parties, voting is usually really between the Conservatives and Liberals, sometimes the NDP as well. Most other parties don't come close enough to garner more support.

Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 03:05:34 am by Dulcinea

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dragonx

#6 December 10, 2008, 03:04:27 am

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Quote from: XxSylverxX on December 10, 2008, 02:50:08 am

I might even support this if it was voted for and the bloc weren't part of it.

Quote from: Dulcinea on December 10, 2008, 03:01:43 am

I forgot to mention the Bloc. I might have more support for the coalition if the block weren't in it. I don't want a seperatist in power. On the flipside, Ignatieff is replacing Dion so there would be a strong liberal leader. I've read a lot of his foreign policy and human rights papers, and he seems like he could do a lot of good.

The bloc aren't actually part of the coalition IIRC, they are just supporting it in confidence votes.

Anyway, I am all for the coalition, but I can see where people are coming from with their complaints, but they are kind of unfounded since well, the canadian democracy complete allows this to happen it is in the constitution and all that crap that lets this happen!

but yeah, go ndp finally gettin some power..LOL

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Evangel

#7 December 10, 2008, 03:10:50 am

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And I thought the United States' political system was kind of crazy. Sounds like Canada is very loose when it comes to who runs the country. Does the governing party have no say in this? Is there a democratic election involved with these parties coming together and taking over?

keep posting...

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dragonx

#8 December 10, 2008, 03:13:26 am

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Quote from: Evangel on December 10, 2008, 03:10:50 am

And I thought the United States' political system was kind of crazy. Sounds like Canada is very loose when it comes to who runs the country. Does the governing party have no say in this? Is there a democratic election involved with these parties coming together and taking over?

The current government is in power but holds less than 50% of the votes in the country, so it is a minority government, and if the opposition parties decide to vote against the governing party on a confidence issue the parliment is dissolved, and really if there is a vote(hopefully not) is dependant on some really stupid things

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Evangel

#9 December 10, 2008, 03:20:57 am

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Quote from: dragonx on December 10, 2008, 03:13:26 am

The current government is in power but holds less than 50% of the votes in the country, so it is a minority government, and if the opposition parties decide to vote against the governing party on a confidence issue the parliment is dissolved, and really if there is a vote(hopefully not) is dependant on some really stupid things

It does sound very undemocratic. In fact, it doesn't sound much better than a violent/military coup. This melting pot of groups technically could end up representing something very much unfavorable to the people.

keep posting...

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Artis Leon Ivey Jr

#10 December 10, 2008, 03:29:50 am

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I've been paying attention to this, it's incredible. like a non-military coup.

brian chemicals

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Izekeal

#11 December 10, 2008, 03:35:40 am

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So what happens when the coalition beats the conservatives in a vote of confidence and, in the resulting election, we get another conservative minority? Rinse and repeat?

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dragonx

#12 December 10, 2008, 03:53:20 am

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Quote from: Izekeal on December 10, 2008, 03:35:40 am

So what happens when the coalition beats the conservatives in a vote of confidence and, in the resulting election, we get another conservative minority? Rinse and repeat?

I really can't see that happening though!

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Frankie

#13 December 10, 2008, 03:53:45 am

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im for the coalition.

This here is very simplifying but it still kinda shows the situation: 45% of voters voted for the conservatives, and 55% of the voters voted for the other parties.

One thing that was pretty much in the mind of all of these 55% is "WE DON'T WANT THE CONSERVATIVES ANYTHING BUT THEM".
There were even websites set up about voting strategically to make sure the conservatives lose, or at least don't get the majority. The site looked at every voting area and pretty much told you who had the best chance in every area against the conservatives, to make sure that the people who just don't want them can effectively vote "against" someone rather than for. That thing was particularly strong in Quebec, where people were very angered at Stephen Harper having projects about cutting funding in culture.

The problem with Canada right now is that there is one very popular party to the right, and 3 popular parties to the left, but the party to the right is more popular than the most popular leftist party, but the leftist parties as a whole are more popular than the party of the right, and though they differ somewhat in their approach to things, they tend to agree a lot together and disagree a whole lot with the party to the right. THAT'S OUR SITUATION IN A NUTSHELL I think coalition is v. good in this situation and that it actually represents the peoples' views more.

Think of it as if people suddenly MASSIVELY voting for a bunch of third party candidates in the US, that were all very much alike the democrats, but that ends up spreading out the sort-of-democratic votes on a million people, while all republicans vote for one dude and win.

Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 03:58:58 am by Frankie

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Dulcinea

#14 December 10, 2008, 04:11:48 am

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Frankie makes a good point, the parties that aren't in power compromise the left.
And also, Canada is a typically centre-left country.
(Also yeah I would've wrote more detail but I didn't want a million posts of "tldr")

Also, I don't like that Harper asked the gg to dissolve parliament. At this time we need Parliament in session. Our economy is just going to keep going further and further down the drain. Dissolving parliament strikes me as sacrificing the well-being of the country in order to maintain power for the Tories.

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XxSylverxX

#15 December 10, 2008, 04:23:49 am

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Quote from: dragonx on December 10, 2008, 03:04:27 am

The bloc aren't actually part of the coalition IIRC, they are just supporting it in confidence votes.

Anyway, I am all for the coalition, but I can see where people are coming from with their complaints, but they are kind of unfounded since well, the canadian democracy complete allows this to happen it is in the constitution and all that crap that lets this happen!

but yeah, go ndp finally gettin some power..LOL

they have some pre existing deal that makes it so they cant be in until 2009 or 10 but they will be part of the coalition after that happens. possibly so everyone in the country wouldn't notice them sneaking into the ruling government...but the conservatives seem to have thwarted that idea.

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dragonx

#16 December 10, 2008, 04:35:26 am

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Quote from: XxSylverxX on December 10, 2008, 04:23:49 am

they have some pre existing deal that makes it so they cant be in until 2009 or 10 but they will be part of the coalition after that happens. possibly so everyone in the country wouldn't notice them sneaking into the ruling government...but the conservatives seem to have thwarted that idea.

source pls?

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kermit the toad

#17 December 10, 2008, 04:39:45 am

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Everyone who thinks this is a coup or non-democratic or whatever needs to fucking go back to grade school. Look up the Westminster parliamentary system. This is totally legally and is actually pretty common in other countries.

PS: Harper was willing to form a coalition with the Bloc in 2004, so he's basically a huge fucking hypocrite.

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Frankie

#18 December 10, 2008, 04:41:56 am

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And now we french terrorists will slowly eat Canada from the inside with our terribly foreign social democratic ideas...we will force you all to eat poutine till you drop

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the_bub_from_the_pit

#19 December 10, 2008, 04:47:48 am

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Quote from: kermit the toad on December 10, 2008, 04:39:45 am

Everyone who thinks this is a coup or non-democratic or whatever needs to fucking go back to grade school. Look up the Westminster parliamentary system. This is totally legally and is actually pretty common in other countries.

PS: Harper was willing to form a coalition with the Bloc in 2004, so he's basically a huge fucking hypocrite.

came in here to post this. seriously, i can't believe the amount of canadians saying this is UNDEMOCRATIC after taking civics in high school.

basically what this would do is represent the country's voters more fairly. it's not like QUEBEC WILL SUDDENLY SEPERATE just because the bloc is in; no, since all parties are in charge only what they all agree on will pass.

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something bizarre and impractical

#20 December 10, 2008, 04:50:05 am

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I honestly hope this country collapses into some sort of post-apocalyptic anarchy with cyborgs running around blasting everyone until the last human resistance builds some sort of EMP bomb and we can start over without such a terrible system.

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