Topic: Israel attacks UN Aid convoy with a tank, bombs UN aid shelter Gaza deathtoll up to close to 600 (Read 18032 times)

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the thing about making schools and homes military targets is that you make your schools and homes targets for the military
I USE Q'S INSTEQD OF Q'S
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Aid has never been blocked only Tariff ridden Israeli goods (Israel has full rights to tax and tariff all Palestinian imports).

Where do you suggest they store these weapons I honestly want to know? What gives israel the rights to have weapons and not Hamas? Hamas needs not take any responsibility for where their weapons are stored ISRAEL IS THE ONE BOMBING THESE PLACES KNOWING FULL WELL THAT CIVILIANS LIVE THERE. Hamas is not allowed weapons but Israel is, great.

Also yes let's make videogames references to describe refugees running away from certain death!!! hell yeah gun down those zombies!!!!! nuke them from orbit!!! lol even central african countries handle refugee situations more humanely than Egypt.

And if Israel didn't attack Gaza then what would Hamas be doing right now?  Launching rockets into Israel of course.

How can you not see the back and forth that's been going on between them?  I've highlighted this already.  Hamas rockets Israel.  Israel retaliates.  Hamas rockets Israel.  Israel retaliates.

Israel has fed up and is now looking to kick their ass.

ANSWER ME THIS TRUTH.  ANSWER IT.

Why are you taking responsibility away from Hamas for not only disregarding the old truce, but also breaking it?

Just answer that one simple question.  If  you answer it sincerely then I'm done.  Seriously.  I'll leave this topic and you can continue your one-sided conversations where you hold up into a bright light the actions of thugs and bullies.
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Before you post, keep in mind that Izz ad whatever is the one that attacked Israel first even though Israel had upheld the truce since 2006.

Hamas' military cell attacked first.
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Before you post, keep in mind that Izz ad whatever is the one that attacked Israel first even though Israel had upheld the truce since 2006.

Hamas' military cell attacked first.

No it didn't are you kidding me we've posted SOURCED PROOF THAT ISRAEL BROKE THE CEASE FIRE.

You know what would end this? If Israel pulled back behind the Armistice borders and recognized the INDEPENDENT SOVEREIGN PALESTINIAN STATE. Hamas is firing rockets because homes are being bulldozed, because walls are being erected keeping people from working, because israel is taxing their goods without representation, because israel is walling them into a ghetto, because israel is blockading basic goods.

But none of this is the point and you're just trying to rope me into some samantical argument when the fact is that you are white knighting a group of people who have killed over 800 PEOPLE. You're trying to make an argument on the only place you feel you have merit. And you know what? It's not surprising that you're trying to defend this at all. I'm not going to go into the details because I'm not a huge prick but it just doesn't surprise me at all.
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No it didn't are you kidding me we've posted SOURCED PROOF THAT ISRAEL BROKE THE CEASE FIRE.

And I have sourced proof that Hamas has attacked Israelian borders more than Israel has attack Hamas.

So who's proof is right, Truth?  The 1,800+ rockets Hamas launched in 2008 alone or Israel killing a handful of Hamas militia because they built a tunnel to kidnap Israeli soldiers?

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But none of this is the point and you're just trying to rope me into some samantical argument when the fact is that you are white knighting a group of people who have killed over 800 PEOPLE. You're trying to make an argument on the only place you feel you have merit. And you know what? It's not surprising that you're trying to defend this at all. I'm not going to go into the details because I'm not a huge prick but it just doesn't surprise me at all.

I'm not trying to lure into nothing, I just want to know why you don't agree that Hamas should be held responsible for neglecting this situation?  Why don't you believe that Hamas should have agreed to the ceasefire proposed yesterday?  Their people are dying, Truth.  Innocent people and any other country would have hopped on the UN bandwagon and said "SAVE US FROM THIS BULLSHIT."

The world is trying to help Gaza and Gaza is ignoring the world so what's going here?  

I'm not white knighting anyone.  I'm looking at this from a realistic perspective while you're being blinded because an incident occurred that cost the lives of civilians which wouldn't have happened if both parties weren't so hamfisted.

But whatever, I'm done, because clearly you don't care that a countries' leaders are responsible for taking care of that country.  According to Truth, it's better to fight and leave your family vulnerable than discuss the situation in a diplomatic manner.  You make fun of me for "white knighting" while you blatantly ignore the facts that not just one group is fucking responsible.

Hope this shit ends soon.  Hope Israel is charged with war crimes.  Hope Hamas is ousted and a less fundamentalist organizations that actually has control over their armed forces establishes peace in Gaza.

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A cease-fire was agreed to by both sides and began on June 19, 2008.[1] Rocket and mortar attacks still continued throughout the cease-fire although less frequently than before the cease-fire went into effect. A total of 20 rockets and 18 mortars were launched from the signing of the ceasefire until the beginning of November. This represented a 98% reduction in rocket fire four and a half month period prior to the signing of the ceasefire during which over 1,800 rockets were fired from Gaza.

Is there something not wrong with this picture, Truth?

Can you explain to me how to go about peace while still attacking someone?  Shake someone's hand then kick them in the balls?

Whatever, man.  Just continue believing that Hamas are the innocent white mice, pure as the day they were born and Israel are the evil black cats coming to stomp them out.
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And I have sourced proof that Hamas has attacked Israelian borders more than Israel has attack Hamas.

So who's proof is right, Truth?  The 1,800+ rockets Hamas launched in 2008 alone or Israel killing a handful of Hamas militia because they built a tunnel to kidnap Israeli soldiers?

I'm not trying to lure into nothing, I just want to know why you don't agree that Hamas should be held responsible for neglecting this situation?  Why don't you believe that Hamas should have agreed to the ceasefire proposed yesterday?  Their people are dying, Truth.  Innocent people and any other country would have hopped on the UN bandwagon and said "SAVE US FROM THIS BULLSHIT."

The world is trying to help Gaza and Gaza is ignoring the world so what's going here?  

I'm not white knighting anyone.  I'm looking at this from a realistic perspective while you're being blinded because an incident occurred that cost the lives of civilians which wouldn't have happened if both parties weren't so hamfisted.

But whatever, I'm done, because clearly you don't care that a countries' leaders are responsible for taking care of that country.  According to Truth, it's better to fight and leave your family vulnerable than discuss the situation in a diplomatic manner.  You make fun of me for "white knighting" while you blatantly ignore the facts that not just one group is fucking responsible.

Hope this shit ends soon.  Hope Israel is charged with war crimes.  Hope Hamas is ousted and a less fundamentalist organizations that actually has control over their armed forces establishes peace in Gaza.

Is there something not wrong with this picture, Truth?

Can you explain to me how to go about peace while still attacking someone?  Shake someone's hand then kick them in the balls?

Whatever, man.  Just continue believing that Hamas are the innocent white mice, pure as the day they were born and Israel are the evil black cats coming to stomp them out.

You've posted yourself that Hamas is a fragmented group and almost a pyramid orginization, this is even ignoring the fact that the military arm of Fatah was launching missiles during the ceasefire, however missiles during that time dropped from IN THE THOUSANDS to twenty. Can you honestly say that Hamas was not making good faith efforts to maintain the ceasefire? Even during the blockade (which is against the geneva conventions lol) missile activity from THE WHOLE OF GAZA nearly completely ceased. Fighting only broke out again when Israel KILLED HAMAS MEMBERS AND KIDNAPPED POLITICIANS. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4 (video of cnn report). Stop ignoring the facts so that you can go on your THE TRUTH IS IN THE MIDDLE crusade.

Edit: However I commend your calls for peace because THAT IS ALL I'M ASKING FOR. However Israel has no intent in pushing back to the 1967 borders, they do not want to recognize a united Palestinian state with zero influence in it. These are things that can only be achieved through fighting the IDF, Imperialism won't go away and must be fought tooth and nail. Do I wish a non fundamentalist party was in power? Sure. But the modern PLO/Fatah made that impossible with the absolute corruption they visited upon gaza and the complete sell out of the palestinian people by Arafat in 1992 and other times.
Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 09:03:58 am by The Truth
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I'm out for the night, peace in the middle east, free palestine/workers of the world unite/etc.
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Hi. An Israeli here. An Israeli soldier actually. I've been inside Gaza for some time, got injured and now I'm in the hospital passing my time by reading all those anti-Israel posts around the internet.  I wasn't really sure if I should reply, because I know that there is a very low chance to change anyone's mind in these matters, especially now when it's so "currect" to hate Israel and say we are war criminals etc. But I read some of the posts here and I just feel like I have to be the one saying something for my country and trying to show you the other side.

So first, I will say this: I'm not here to make Israel look all pretty and clean. Yes, Palestinian civilians are being killed and I can give you my word (if it worth something for you) that not a single one of them was killed intentionally. Sometimes it looks like people on the street around the world like to think about us (Israeli soldiers, leaders etc) as animals - we are not animals, we are human just like you. Believe me, I don't like to see any 5 year old kid getting killed - it makes me feel sick and it should never happen. Let me give you a little info from the inside - we came across some house in Gaza, and when we got inside, we saw a family just sitting there. We asked them why they were there, in such a dangerous situation, and they told us that someone locked them inside saying he would kill them with his gun if they go outside. This someone is a Hamas soldier, knowing that this family could die in some Israeli attack. So why the hell will he make them stay inside? isn't he supposed to defend them? Nope. He knows that if they will die, at least this will make Israel look like shit in the media, creating more pressure from the outside world on Israel to get out of Gaza. Another thing about those Hamas "soldiers" - they fight us wearing jeans and T-shirts. There is no way to know if a person is a civilian or a Hamas soldier, until the second he brings out the gun and starts shooting at you. They don't do it because they don't have uniforms, they do it because they simply don't give a fuck about they people of Gaza - all they want is to destroy Israel, no matter the cost. And these stuff are just some of the shit we deal with over there.

About the justification of this whole thing, let me ask you a question: if your country was bombed with rockets for 7 years from a different country, would you want your country to do nothing about it? Imagine this: you walk in some street in your city on a beautiful day, you do your grocery shopping, whatever, and then out of the blue - A ROCKET FALLS right in front of you, killing you! Sound kind of ridiculous, right? We would you think that something like that will happen to you? Well, think about that: in Sderot, an Israeli city 15 KM from Gaza, a day without 3-4 rockets is a REALLY fucking weird day. So the people of Sderot and all of the cities in it's area should just live with that for... how long? another 7 years? will that make this military operation justified? Or maybe we should just wait until the rocket will fall on some group of children, killing them, and THEN we will have a good reason to try and stop it? A week ago, one rocket hit a school class in Be'er Sheva. The class was empty of children because Israel stopped all studying in the bombed ares. Why don't the Hamas do the same for the people he claims to defend? Why do I see a man walking down the street of Gaza with a baby in his arms and an AK47 on his back in the middle of a war? What the fuck?

I have a lot more to say but my time is short right now. Please, feel free to ask me questions (hit me with hard questions if you want) and I will try to get my hands on some computer here to answer them.
Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 11:14:09 am by B.I.G
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Hi. An Israeli here. An Israeli soldier actually. I've been inside Gaza for some time, got injured and now I'm in the hospital passing my time by reading all those anti-Israel posts around the internet.  I wasn't really sure if I should reply, because I know that there is a very low chance to change anyone's mind in these matters, especially now when it's so "currect" to hate Israel and say we are war criminals etc. But I read some of the posts here and I just feel like I have to be the one saying something for my country and trying to show you the other side.

So first, I will say this: I'm not here to make Israel look all pretty and clean. Yes, Palestinian civilians are being killed and I can give you my word (if it worth something for you) that not a single one of them was killed intentionally. Sometimes it looks like people on the street around the world like to think about us (Israeli soldiers, leaders etc) as animals - we are not animals, we are human just like you. Believe me, I don't like to see any 5 year old kid getting killed - it makes me feel sick and it should never happen. Let me give you a little info from the inside - we came across some house in Gaza, and when we got inside, we saw a family just sitting there. We asked them why they were there, in such a dangerous situation, and they told us that someone locked them inside saying he would kill them with his gun if they go outside. This someone is a Hamas soldier, knowing that this family could die in some Israeli attack. So why the hell will he make them stay inside? isn't he supposed to defend them? Nope. He knows that if they will die, at least this will make Israel look like shit in the media, creating more pressure from the outside world on Israel to get out of Gaza. Another thing about those Hamas "soldiers" - they fight us wearing jeans and T-shirts. There is no way to know if a person is a civilian or a Hamas soldier, until the second he brings out the gun and starts shooting at you. They don't do it because they don't have uniforms, they do it because they simply don't give a fuck about they people of Gaza - all they want is to destroy Israel, no matter the cost. And these stuff are just some of the shit we deal with over there.

About the justification of this whole thing, let me ask you a question: if your country was bombed with rockets for 7 years from a different country, would you want your country to do nothing about it? Imagine this: you walk in some street in your city on a beautiful day, you do your grocery shopping, whatever, and then out of the blue - A ROCKET FALLS right in front of you, killing you! Sound kind of ridiculous, right? We would you think that something like that will happen to you? Well, think about that: in Sderot, an Israeli city 15 KM from Gaza, a day without 3-4 rockets is a REALLY fucking weird day. So the people of Sderot and all of the cities in it's area should just live with that for... how long? another 7 years? will that make this military operation justified? Or maybe we should just wait until the rocket will fall on some group of children, killing them, and THEN we will have a good reason to try and stop it? A week ago, one rocket hit a school class in Be'er Sheva. The class was empty of children because Israel stopped all studying in the bombed ares. Why don't the Hamas do the same for the people he claims to defend? Why do I see a man walking down the street of Gaza with a baby in his arms and an AK47 on his back in the middle of a war? What the fuck?

I have a lot more to say but my time is short right now. Please, feel free to ask me questions (hit me with hard questions if you want) and I will try to get my hands on some computer here to answer them.


How do you justify to yourself Palestinian land being taken and homes bulldozed? How do you justify the food and medical blockade? How do you justify walling people into a ghetto and blocking them off from their land and their work? How do you justify an occupation that has lasted sixty years while tariffing imports into Gaza while not recognizing the geneva convention? Would you still think it was okay if these "terrorists" were hiding among civilians in Tel Aviv? Would you support 800 tel aviv citizens being killed? What do you have to say of reports of children being sniped by Israeli snipers? About un aid convoys and UN schools (whose coordinates were broadcast to the idf) being bombed? The UN has said nobody was mortaring from their property do you accuse them of lying? Why not just cede land to the armistice agreement instead of negotiating through slaughter?
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it's ok truth. he's an injured Israeli soldier in a hospital bed in Gaza on a laptop with wireless. the connection is kinda spotty especially when the dust from the bombings of nearby buildings gets inside and in between all of the power failures. he might not answer for a while
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Let me give you a little info from the inside - we came across some house in Gaza, and when we got inside, we saw a family just sitting there. We asked them why they were there, in such a dangerous situation, and they told us that someone locked them inside saying he would kill them with his gun if they go outside. This someone is a Hamas soldier, knowing that this family could die in some Israeli attack. So why the hell will he make them stay inside? isn't he supposed to defend them? Nope. He knows that if they will die, at least this will make Israel look like shit in the media, creating more pressure from the outside world on Israel to get out of Gaza.

And how do YOU justify that Truth.
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how do you justify this hypothetical example that might not have happened truth. do this for me.

once i saw a criminal element tell someone not to go outside or hed kill them, so i blew up the family inside. its his fault. they would have left if they could. semper stupid bullshit. everyone in this topic open your wrists.
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Let me give you a little info from the inside - we came across some house in Gaza, and when we got inside, we saw a family just sitting there. We asked them why they were there, in such a dangerous situation, and they told us that someone locked them inside saying he would kill them with his gun if they go outside. This someone is a Hamas soldier, knowing that this family could die in some Israeli attack. So why the hell will he make them stay inside? isn't he supposed to defend them? Nope. He knows that if they will die, at least this will make Israel look like shit in the media, creating more pressure from the outside world on Israel to get out of Gaza.

Are you trying to say that because a family was pressured not to leave an area where Israelis might be entering, it absolves IDF forces of all blame if they blow the shit out of them?

Are you aware that it is a war crime to not take measures to limit civilian deaths, even if the enemy is creating a situation in which preventing civilian deaths is difficult?

edit: I guess that is somewhat patronizing to say to a wounded soldier but really, do you not see the flaws in that example?
Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 05:36:10 pm by stern_gupples

That’s right, you have the young gaming with the old(er), white people gaming with black people, men and women, Asian countries gaming with the EU, North Americans gaming with South Americans. Much like world sporting events like the Wolrd Cup, or the Olympics will bring together different nations in friendly competition, (note the recent Asian Cup; Iraq vs. Saudi Arabia, no violence there) we come together. The differences being, we are not divided by our nationalities and we do it 24-7, and on a personal level.

We are a community without borders and without colours, the spirit and diversity of the gaming community is one that should be looked up to, a spirit and diversity other groups should strive toward.
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how do you justify this hypothetical example that might not have happened truth. do this for me.

Damn them lying jews.

It does not excuse the IDF but shit it proves that the Hamas are pretty horrible.
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ONE GUY DID SOMETHING!

KILL THE CHILDREN.

seriously truth straight up just agrees with a blatantly racist statement and sides with a pretty horrible hardcore religious organization and he's still one of the more intelligent people in this topic by virtue of the fact he's not trying to justify mass murder and realizes there's a fervent pro-Israel bias that needs to be countered, you're all such awful people.

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And how do YOU justify that Truth.

like it astonishes me that you are still the same stupid motherfucker you've been for years. a thing happened once; justify this! i'm gonna ignore that picture of a dead baby on page 2 though. in this situation where a two post member claims something happened and no one actually got hurt even in his example, I have found my onus.

Damn them lying jews.

It does not excuse the IDF but shit it proves that the Hamas are pretty horrible.

no it doesn't. no one's even dead in this example. no one got hurt.

and once again we're back to second fucking grade. IF ONE PERSON IS BAD.

IT'S OKAY TO KILL CHILDREN.

you people are so dumb I am amazed that when presented with soup your brain can figure out not to send the broth into your lungs basically you would all drown in soup I am saying I am amazed you can figure out how to eat food as that involves complex muscle reaction, taste (none of you have this anyways), and multiple senses, whereas figuring out there's no justification for killing a lot of children who did nothing and bombing a UN camp takes about two neurons firing to figure out.
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seriously look what you've done truth. even ryan is saying dumb shit like I DONT SUPPORT HAMAS BECAUSE THEY ARE BAD because you've convinced people with your idiotic zeal for ANYTHING THAT IS REMOTELY EMOTIONAL that condemning Israel means you must also support Hamas instead of just having a great deal more understanding for Hamas and more condemnation for Israel and now fake Israeli soldiers are posting examples where no one even gets hurt and people are asking you to justify it because you're the only one stupid enough to do this instead of dismissing it. now I'm the only one other than Dietcoke who isn't going to post here that actually feels SOMEWHAT INDIGNANT about the issue and everyone else is stuck in some bullshit libertarian THE REAL WAY IS IN THE MIDDLE crap instead of realizing that when you're facing a country that kills children regularly, has several groups working to insult and degrade you while uplifting them, has all the power, and has forced Palestine in fifty short years from all of the country into basically a fucking landing strip that they are currently invading, a little religious intoleration and violence is somewhat understandable. instead you want to say it's all JUSTIFIABLE and not only is GW not a smart enough place to contemplate external factors to this degree but you aren't a smart enough guy to pull it off!

basically lock this topic you're all awful monsters, if you support Israel in this crisis, set yourself on fire.
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How do you justify to yourself Palestinian land being taken and homes bulldozed? How do you justify the food and medical blockade? How do you justify walling people into a ghetto and blocking them off from their land and their work? How do you justify an occupation that has lasted sixty years while tariffing imports into Gaza while not recognizing the geneva convention? Would you still think it was okay if these "terrorists" were hiding among civilians in Tel Aviv? Would you support 800 tel aviv citizens being killed? What do you have to say of reports of children being sniped by Israeli snipers? About un aid convoys and UN schools (whose coordinates were broadcast to the idf) being bombed? The UN has said nobody was mortaring from their property do you accuse them of lying? Why not just cede land to the armistice agreement instead of negotiating through slaughter?

Palestinian land being taken - what land are you talking about? The Gaza strip land? We don't plan on taking this land, be sure of that. Other lands? This is just my personal opinion but I really won't give a crap if we gave them half of our country for peace. This was actualy offered to them back in 98 when Ehud Barak was the Prime Minister (98% of occupied lands back). No, they didn't take them. Their leadres just want to see Israel destroyed, not live with it.
Houses being  bulldozed - we do what we do to protect ourselves when wer'e in there. If the house has people shooting at me inside it - I don't care if it will be destroyed. If it has civilians in it - I don't justify it by any means. On that matter, did you know that before we bomb a house we actually warn the people around it to get out of the way? So why are people still being killed? Get back to my original post.
Food and medical blockade - I don't justify it. I know that we do seize our fire for 3 hours everyday so those things could get in. I whish we did more.
Walling people into a ghetto and blocking them off from their land and their work - I said what I think about the land and the work. Walling them into a ghetto? I'm just waiting for the day that the real Palestinian people, and not some mentaly ill religious extremists (aka Hamas) will take over the strip and ask Israel: give us money for books, help us build a normal society and live like normal people. As long as Hamas is handing them by the balls, this won't happen. Because they don't just despy Israel, they despy the entire western modern world and guess what, if someone from the Hamas will get his hands on you - he'll probably try to kill you to - because you live in a western country (I guess).
About the occupation and all - I believe you can understand my standing on that from the above.
Would you still think it was okay if these "terrorists" were hiding among civilians in Tel Aviv? Did I say it was okay? I think it sucks ass, I don't think it's okay - and I will say again - we don't, don't, don't, ever, kill any civilian by intention. You could say that bombing a house without knowing 100% that there are no civilians inside it is the same as killing them intentionaly, but if someone is shooting rockets from that house? Should we let him keep doing that? I'm glad I'm not the one making those choices.
What do you have to say of reports of children being sniped by Israeli snipers? If you actualy believe that, then why am I trying to reason with you? You clearly hate Israel and see us as some big evil that is inside Gaza to kill little children. Sorry, but this is bullshit. I swear to god, these reports are just lies.
About un aid convoys and UN schools (whose coordinates were broadcast to the idf) being bombed? From what I know of it - I am really ashamed and I don't justify it at all. I don't know as much as you (havn't been watching the news during the time inside) but please, try not to just believe everything you hear like it's a fact (again with the snipers thing...).

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it's ok truth. he's an injured Israeli soldier in a hospital bed in Gaza on a laptop with wireless. the connection is kinda spotty especially when the dust from the bombings of nearby buildings gets inside and in between all of the power failures. he might not answer for a while
I can see the sarcasm about my condition, but I can also see from that post that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to what happens in Israel (just a guess, sorry if I'm wrong). Obviosly, I'm not in Gaza right now as Israel wouldn't send it's wounded soldiers over to Gaza.

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Are you trying to say that because a family was pressured not to leave an area where Israelis might be entering, it absolves IDF forces of all blame if they blow the shit out of them?

Are you aware that it is a war crime to not take measures to limit civilian deaths, even if the enemy is creating a situation in which preventing civilian deaths is difficult?

edit: I guess that is somewhat patronizing to say to a wounded soldier but really, do you not see the flaws in that example?

Nope, I'm not saying that. I don't agree of killing civilians, ever.

Also, in that particular example, that family just stayed in the house when we left them. It's not like we came in, saw them, shot them all and went like "HAHAHA YOURE DEAD SRY ITS THE HAMAS' FAULT" - We try to avoid killing innocent people as hard as we can...
Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 06:10:04 pm by B.I.G
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This topic demonstrates an inherent difficulty in quantifying morality, in this case the difference between potential and actual capability. Hamas may have killed only a few civilians, but if they were given enough resources, I am almost certain they could be genocidal. Israel has the military capacity, but merely not enough political clout. At least we can thank democracy for that small relief.
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  • Group: Member
  • Joined: Dec 24, 2003
  • Posts: 6432
yep thats israel, no political clout
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