Poll: dont read the thread, just answer

16
87 51.5%
-16
67 39.6%
I don't know how to do this math
15 8.9%

Status: Voting has ended

168 Total Votes

Poll -4^2 (Read 10413 times)

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order of operations is so gay does it actually have any purpose beyond teachers making really weird math problems to fuck with us

IS IT A DECIMAL POINT OR A SPECK OF DUST CAUGHT ON THE SCANNER I'LL NEVER TELL

we should just do parentheses wherever it's confusing like in C++ etc. can't you do this in math already if you're a decent human being and don't want to confuse people

uhh, every possible use in math?
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this is my point exactly. just because something is surely taught in your schools that doesn't necessarily mean that everywhere else in the world will surely teach the same things to people at the same age. i've heard of bodmas, but i couldn't tell you what it means at all now (and I was A* maths when i was 16, the age i stopped studying). i have never ever ever heard of pedmas prior to this thread, neither had the other UK people by the looks.
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because there's like a billion other things that are more important and you can just use parentheses

you're saying that if you were designing a nuclear reactor and somehow that math figured into it you wouldn't just put in parentheses to clarify things don't different computer programs do it differently anyway
Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 09:09:31 pm by Ragnar
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because there's like a billion other things that are more important and you can just use parentheses

but using parentheses is using order of operations  :fogetshrug:
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I am trying to make a very clear explanation of why -4^2 is -16 and not 16.

You all know that in mathematics an expression must always be solved in the right order. You don't always go from left to right. Everyone knows that in expression:
1 + 2 * 3
2 * 3 is evaluated before the 1 + 2.

Similarly everyone knows that in expression:
2 * 5 ^ 2
5 ^ 2 is evaluated before 2 * 5.

This is called order of operations. I've referred to it as "operator precedence" many times in my posts before, which is a term more common to programming languages, but it means the same thing. Order of operations.

Now, the reason why people miscalculate the -4 ^ 2 is because they don't know that there's an operation "hidden" in the -4. Yes, -4 is a number on its own (a real number), but the -4 is also an operation. This operation is called negation. Everyone knows this as well. Everyone knows that a minus sign can be used to negate a number, or an expression, but what they don't know is that it's also got its place in the order of operations. And furthermore they don't know that it's not on top of the list (and this is not necessarily their fault, it's surprising in how many schools they don't apparently teach this at all). Exponentiation has higher precedence in order of operations than the negation (which I've referred to as "unary -" in my earlier posts, which is also more of a programming terminology). That is why -4^2 is calculated as -(4^2). For the very same reason why 1 + 2 * 3 is calculated as 1 + (2 * 3).

Hopefully that clears it up a bit.


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I'm saying does C++ have order of operations because this is the only possible way I could conceive of using 1 + 2 * 3 in real life and I've always just used parentheses because I don't know if it's going to like an expression like that or not


we should just write math problems out like lisp lol
Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 09:14:47 pm by Ragnar
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are there any other "hidden" operations btw.
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It's -16, since -4^2 is the same thing as in something like 17 - 4^2, which is 17 - 16 = 1 and not 17 + 16 = 33
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I have never heard everyone as a synonym of I before
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And for people who think -4^2 is 16, because "-4" is a number, think it like this:
-(2+2)^2

Clearly the - here is not part of the number. It's used to negate an expression. This shows you that subtraction of two numbers, and negative numbers are not the only things the - is for. It's also for an operation called negation, which is shown in the expression above.

Quote
are there any other "hidden" operations btw.
Not that I know of!


Also Ragnar is right, it's always a good idea to use parenthesis to clarify an expression. Although I don't really think that simple expressions like 1 + 2 * 3 need them.

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I have never heard everyone as a synonym of I before
Sorry, English isn't my native language. :( (assuming you're talking about me)

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are you guys seriously debating how awful you are at math.

I NEVER LEARNED PEMDAS OR ANYTHING LIKE IT. I DONT REMEMBER.

fuck you dude that is basic math and yeah EVERYONE is a good way to put it. everyone does know order of operations. also everyone saying RAMI USES BIG WORDS eat shit and learn to google. he's not saying big words and if you cant figure out what exponential means holy fuck. unary was the only one you might have a problem discerning.
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Everyone knows that in expression, etc etc

no rami, everyone DOESN'T know that, this is the point. just because something is perfectly logical to you it does not mean that everyone else knows it at all. your explanations are constantly "everyone knows this" "everyone knows that" but they DON'T. i am pretty sure everything you are saying here is always 100% true, but it's made confusing by (as ase said) you're constantly using technical and programming terminology instead of basic maths terms everyone can understand, and your explanations are just consistently confusing.
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I'm serious is there any case where you might learn like Ruby and the order of operations works differently

I'm saying I know I learned PEMDAS but something like 1 + 2 * 3 was like one day of math class ever and if it came time to actually use a problem that fit that thing I wouldn't be sure enough if I remembered right whether the answer was 16 or -16
Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 09:20:37 pm by Ragnar
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go get laid ya nerds
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Quote
i've heard of bodmas, but i couldn't tell you what it means at all now (and I was A* maths when i was 16, the age i stopped studying).

thats like getting straight As in astronomy and then not remembering the earth revolves around the sun.

everyone does know order of operations and if you don't holy shit dude your math has regressed to elementary school level. I am terrible at math but I KNOW WHAT ORDER OF OPERATIONS IS.
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i don't know what to say. i had never heard of the term exponentiation in relation to powers or in relation to order of operations before. idk why this was left out because we were taught the rest of the order (brackets, multiplication/division, addition/subtraction) so maybe this is just laaazy teaching. idk why this is such a shocking revelation and considering I am a certified A grade mathematician (though this is no actual reflection of my skill) it can't be of that much importance, surely?

also again never been to an elementary school.
Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 09:24:15 pm by Rockman
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no rami, everyone DOESN'T know that, this is the point. just because something is perfectly logical to you it does not mean that everyone else knows it at all. your explanations are constantly "everyone knows this" "everyone knows that" but they DON'T. i am pretty sure everything you are saying here is always 100% true, but it's made confusing by (as ase said) you're constantly using technical and programming terminology instead of basic maths terms everyone can understand, and your explanations are just consistently confusing.
Ok, excluding people under age 10, you seriously claim that people don't know that multiplication is evaluated before addition in an expression? What a fine level of education they must have in the UK...

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hey sare everyone knows the volume of a sphere is ((4)/(3))*(pi)*(r^3) :S
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note i voted -16 and didnt have too much trouble with this, i am saying it's not hard to see how OTHER people can get this so badly wrong and also rami just doesn't make sense to people who don't know the reasoning to begin with.
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