Attention beanbag activism (Read 3822 times)

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you're absolutely full of shit if you honestly think agriculture takes more time than hunter-gatherers. for one, agriculture is seasonal, so at least two seasons out of the year you're not planting or harvesting ANYTHING.

agriculture typically provides enough of a surplus for lasting the other two seasons (usually winter and spring) so you don't have to do any harvesting.

you're just wrong! the reason why agriculture led to MODERN SOCIETY IN GENERAL is because it provided for more leasure time so people actually had time to sit down and figure out little things such as READING AND WRITING, and ALL TECHNOLOGY
Everything I've read says hunter-gatherers worked less to survive.  All the anthropology shit I've read...my teacher...etc all say this?  It is seasonal...meaning when you aren't doing the work someone else is doing it for you and having it shipped to you.
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Yeah but once again if you just want to survive that much work isn't necessary. You don't really understand most of the money we make goes to things they just didn't have in hunter gather societies
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Dok, surviving and living comfortably are entirely different things.  If your only work consists of finding something to eat, of course you'll have plenty of free time--to do WHAT?  You'd be living off your own means which means no surplus which means no money, so what is it you're going to be doing with this free time of yours every day for the rest of your life?
I love this hobby - stealing your mother's diary
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Everything I've read says hunter-gatherers worked less to survive.  All the anthropology shit I've read...my teacher...etc all say this?  It is seasonal...meaning when you aren't doing the work someone else is doing it for you and having it shipped to you.
nah it's seasonal meaning when you aren't doing the work you have a bunch of pickled, jarred or otherwise preserved shit from the fall, plus meat, milk, eggs and grain (which is still work.... soooo much work to get tho)

i don't know why you're even talking about this though. what do you mean by a simple life? are you romanticizing the life of the noble raccoon? mankind too is an animal... *scavenges in neighbor's garbage for food; it is tainted by non-freerange meat*
Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 03:45:21 pm by esiann
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http://www.life.uiuc.edu/ib/454/lecture6.html
This article has no citations and actually doesn't even appear to be an article at all, so I'm going to ignore it completely if you don't mind.

I'd much rather work 2.5 days a week to survive than work 5 days a week 8 hours a day (which I work in the summer).
Excellent. That'll give you plenty of time to make a cane. You'll need one for when you get polio, after all, because nobody ever invented the vaccine.

Agcriculture is more scalable of obtaining food to feed the almost 7 billion people, but when you have a group of under 100 hunting and gathering works just fine.
Nobody contests this. It's true that hunter-gatherer societies can work under those conditions, and your claim that it takes less time to obtain food is probably true under those circumstances. (This isn't entirely obvious, though, since agriculture yields a much higher output per crop which might offset the time taken to plant them.)

The problem is that mankind was only at such low population levels for a very short time. It was a matter of time before the population would become big enough to be able to commit itself to a more scalable method of obtaining food.

So again, I don't really get why you're saying this. It's like you're silently wishing that we were still at the population levels of 100,000 years ago.

I'd rather live a simple life than a life full of work?
Okay, this is getting rather silly. Take a look around you. You've surrounded by walls, a floor and a ceiling. You're typing this on a keyboard, which is connected to a computer, which probably has a monitor too. There's a great likelihood of there being a TV in your vicinity, too. Same for the coffee machine and couch and boiler. Like most people, you probably also have windows made of glass.

You would have none of these things if agriculture never occurred. They were invented and created by people who didn't have to spend 2 and a half days a week barbecuing dandelions. Those 5 days a week you mention come with the ability to make use of the things that were made possible by that extra time. Remember that by asking to cut your working time in half, you're doing the same for everybody else.

If you're really that lazy, go get a different job. Or don't get a job at all and live on welfare. Not enough welfare where you live? Move to another country. (Use a plane or boat created by one of those crazy agriculturists.)

My link is that mass agriculuture produced a huge spike in population increase, which caused peoples to become crowded so they had to move, they moved to all areas of the globe taking agriculture with them, thus forcing other indigenous socieities to change their way of life which has had horrible effects.
Which indigenous societies? When did this happen? What were these "horrible effects"? Is there any evidence, mineralized or otherwise, that what you claim is what happened, or are you just projecting the hardships of the Australian Aborigines onto every other nameless culture?

Seriously man. You're not even really thinking this through, are you?
Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 04:00:18 pm by Dada
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Everything I've read says hunter-gatherers worked less to survive.  All the anthropology shit I've read...my teacher...etc all say this?
Cool, I just searched arXiv.org for "everything Doktormartini read" and found exactly what I was looking for. Thanks a ton.
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Yeah but once again if you just want to survive that much work isn't necessary. You don't really understand most of the money we make goes to things they just didn't have in hunter gather societies
Things we don't need?
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By the way, in high school I had a biology teacher who believed that Noah really did build an ark, that humans could live to about 900 years before dying around the time of Adam and Eve, and that macroevolution is unproven and incorrect. You'd do well to be skeptical about what teachers tell you sometimes.
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Everything I've read says hunter-gatherers worked less to survive.  All the anthropology shit I've read...my teacher...etc all say this?  It is seasonal...meaning when you aren't doing the work someone else is doing it for you and having it shipped to you.

that's just not the case!

Quote
the reason why agriculture led to MODERN SOCIETY IN GENERAL is because it provided for more leasure time so people actually had time to sit down and figure out little things such as READING AND WRITING, and ALL TECHNOLOGY

there's a reason why technology and society as we know it was invented after we discovered agriculture. it's because agriculture allowed humans to have permanent residences and allowed more leisure time to invent things such as written languages.
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This article has no citations and actually doesn't even appear to be an article at all, so I'm going to ignore it completely if you don't mind.
No citations because it's a university course website.  Call the instructors. 

employees.oneonta.edu/walkerr/Mesoamerica/From%20Hunting%20and%20Gathering%20to%20Farming.ppt (dunno if you can open it but it says)
"# Hunting and gathering actually takes less time and effort than food production.

    * i.e. soil has to be worked, crops planted, pests controlled, harvest, processed.  Hunters-gatherers spend about 12-19 hours per week.
# Agriculture is also risky-could have crops die due to bad weather."


http://courses.washington.edu/anth457/agorigin.htm
"Fundamental assumption is that agriculture has only one real advantage over foraging -- it can provide more food per unit land (tho at higher labor cost per unit food yield, and often lower nutritional quality)"


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Excellent. That'll give you plenty of time to make a cane. You'll need one for when you get polio, after all, because nobody ever invented the vaccine.
This is true but infectious diseases are more likely to spread through higher populations and crowds.  Maybe the chances of me getting polio are less, but if I did get it I would probably be killed.

Quote
Nobody contests this. It's true that hunter-gatherer societies can work under those conditions, and your claim that it takes less time to obtain food is probably true under those circumstances. (This isn't entirely obvious, though, since agriculture yields a much higher output per crop which might offset the time taken to plant them.)
It does yield more but they didn't need more because they were doing just fine.

Quote
The problem is that mankind was only at such low population levels for a very short time. It was a matter of time before the population would become big enough to be able to commit itself to a more scalable method of obtaining food.
Again, population drastically rose because mass agriculture.

Quote
So again, I don't really get why you're saying this. It's like you're silently wishing that we were still at the population levels of 100,000 years ago.
Industrial civilization is killing the planet.  We keep cutting down forests to make room for more agriculture...it is estimated that 100 species go extinct each day.  We are depleting natural resources at a super fast rate.  What happens when they are gone, what are we going to do?  There was a topic awhile ago about the recycling waterfall thing that showed what % of bottles are recycled to what % are not.  It's crazy.

Quote
Okay, this is getting rather silly. Take a look around you. You've surrounded by walls, a floor and a ceiling. You're typing this on a keyboard, which is connected to a computer, which probably has a monitor too. There's a great likelyhood of there being a TV in your vicinity, too. Same for the coffee machine and couch and boiler. Like most people, you probably also have windows made of glass.
You would have none of these things if agriculture never occurred. They were invented and created by people who didn't have to spend 2 and a half days a week barbecuing dandelions. Those 5 days a week you mention come with the ability to make use of the things that were made possible by that extra time. Remember that by asking to cut your working time in half, you're doing the same for everybody else.
These are all things not required for survival.  I understand I use them...call me a hypocrite I don't care.  Are all environmentalists hypocrites for driving cars and reading books or using computers?

Quote
Which indigenous societies? When did this happen? What were these "horrible effects"? Is there any evidence, mineralized or otherwise, that what you claim is what happened, or are you just projecting the hardships of the Australian Aborigines onto every other nameless culture?
Most.  Almost all indigenous societies are either not around anymore, or do not live their traditional life due to foreigners taking the land.
For example, the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in the US is one of the poorest counties in the US.  I believe it's like half of the people there do not have jobs. 
This is a pretty good presentation on what happens when civilization reaches indigenous cultures:
http://www.survival-international.org/lib/downloads/source/progresscankill/full_report.pdf
Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 04:30:41 pm by Doktormartini
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that's just not the case!

there's a reason why technology and society as we know it was invented after we discovered agriculture. it's because agriculture allowed humans to have permanent residences and allowed more leisure time to invent things such as written languages.
Or maybe life was hard so we invented things to make it easier?
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mabey...just mabey
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Chicken, meet egg.

Also I'm not sure if you understand yet, but an article not having any citations means it's not necessarily accepted by meanstream science. If you can't find me an article on a site such as arXive.org that makes the same claims but actually substantiates them, I'm not going to bother trying to refute what is essentially fringe science.
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Things we don't need?
The point is if you WANT to live witnout all these things you "don't need" you can. Nobody is stopping you and if that were the case you would be perfectly able to pay for everything you need working two days a week.
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Once upon a time and a very good time it was there was a moocow coming down along the road and this moocow that was coming down along the road met a nicens little boy named baby dokkoo

His father googled him that story: his father looked at him through a glass: he had a hairy face and no sources.
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basically every fucking month you guys get trolled into this argument. he's an anarchoprimitivist. his favorite book is about a gorilla telling people to eat plants. i know you should be respectful of all points of view but for fuck's sake ANARCHOPRIMITIVIST.
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basically every fucking month you guys get trolled into this argument. he's an anarchoprimitivist. his favorite book is about a gorilla telling people to eat plants. i know you should be respectful of all points of view but for fuck's sake ANARCHOPRIMITIVIST.
But this is the reason I've been here for years! I don't really care either way about what he thinks but the act of coming up with a logical argument against what he says is a fun thing to do.

You were once like me... what happened...
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Chicken, meet egg.

Also I'm not sure if you understand yet, but an article not having any citations means it's not necessarily accepted by meanstream science. If you can't find me an article on a site such as arXive.org that makes the same claims but actually substantiates them, I'm not going to bother trying to refute what is essentially fringe science.
I mostly quoted university websites so if they're wrong then I guess the university sucks lolz

Also that's not what the book is about.
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Chicken, meet egg.

Also I'm not sure if you understand yet, but an article not having any citations means it's not necessarily accepted by meanstream science. If you can't find me an article on a site such as arXive.org that makes the same claims but actually substantiates them, I'm not going to bother trying to refute what is essentially fringe science.
I looked at arXive.org and I didn't see any anthropology stuff on there.
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I mostly quoted university websites so if they're wrong then I guess the university sucks lolz
It's not about that. If what your university talks about is impossible to find in frontier science literature then where did they get the information from?