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im_so_tired

#141 January 06, 2010, 06:22:32 pm

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Quote from: Mateui on January 06, 2010, 05:48:49 pm

Both groups here are white in skin color so to simply call it a white fantasy is just narrow minded and doesn't fully convey the meaning of this phenomenon. I'd call it an oppressor fantasy instead.

yeah you're right. i'm not arguing or prodding you, but i'm just letting you know how i got to white fantasy. it is exactly and oppressor fantasy, which is usually referred to as a colonial fantasy. it is. the move is a colonial scenario. historically most colonial scenarios are whites oppressing others. in the context of america and white film makers, an industry dominated by white males, and loads of other similar factors, you could definitely call this movie a white fantasy. that doesn't exclude it from being a human fantasy and it doesn't exclude it from being an oppressor fantasy. it's not narrow minded, it's just specific, contextual and maybe a little presumptuous.

oh well. that's how i feel about it.

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Mateui

#142 January 06, 2010, 06:37:05 pm

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Quote from: im_so_tired on January 06, 2010, 06:22:32 pm

yeah you're right. i'm not arguing or prodding you, but i'm just letting you know how i got to white fantasy. it is exactly and oppressor fantasy, which is usually referred to as a colonial fantasy. it is. the move is a colonial scenario. historically most colonial scenarios are whites oppressing others. in the context of america and white film makers, an industry dominated by white males, and loads of other similar factors, you could definitely call this movie a white fantasy. that doesn't exclude it from being a human fantasy and it doesn't exclude it from being an oppressor fantasy. it's not narrow minded, it's just specific, contextual and maybe a little presumptuous.

oh well. that's how i feel about it.

Yeah, definetely, I agree with that.

More films that fall prey to this: James Clavell's Shogun - a story about a white man travelling to Japan for trade, becoming a Shogun and even betraying his own people. The Last Samurai. Man, this film is pretty much the exact same plot as Avatar, only in Japan. Sickening. And it includes Tom Cruise too.

Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 06:38:40 pm by Mateui

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bretly

#143 January 06, 2010, 07:25:05 pm

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you can't say that it is an oppressors fantasy rather than white fantasy because you are completely ignoring the context in which the film exists: our society

you can technically say that white fantasy is a form of oppressors fantasy but thats not the point here

also schindlers list is based on a true story

Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 07:29:01 pm by bretly

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Mateui

#144 January 06, 2010, 09:05:35 pm

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Quote from: bretly on January 06, 2010, 07:25:05 pm

you can't say that it is an oppressors fantasy rather than white fantasy because you are completely ignoring the context in which the film exists: our society

you can technically say that white fantasy is a form of oppressors fantasy but thats not the point here

Yes, in the case of the film you could call it a white fantasy (would you be able to do so if the entire human cast was black and the movie creator was black? hmm..?), but to just coin this concept as that is not adequate in my opinion. Nowhere did that article writer denote this as a subform of something else, they just called it a white fantasy and left it at that.

The ironic thing for me personally is that the term white fantasy is racist in its own regard. To prejudice all whites as having this ultimate fantasy is just stupid, because that is not the case at all. Imagine someone coining a phrase as black fantasy.. yeah, that wouldn't fly. It's all semantics, yes, but to have a term that is supposed to look down upon racism be racist itself is just

.

Quote

also schindlers list is based on a true story

Yes, I know that but so what if it's based on a true story? Doesn't that further validate that concept then? If it really happened in real life rather than in a literary/graphical medium?

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bretly

#145 January 06, 2010, 09:19:02 pm

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Quote from: Mateui on January 06, 2010, 09:05:35 pm

Yes, in the case of the film you could call it a white fantasy (would you be able to do so if the entire human cast was black and the movie creator was black? hmm..?), but to just coin this concept as that is not adequate in my opinion. Nowhere did that article writer denote this as a subform of something else, they just called it a white fantasy and left it at that.

The ironic thing for me personally is that the term white fantasy is racist in its own regard. To prejudice all whites as having this ultimate fantasy is just stupid, because that is not the case at all. Imagine someone coining a phrase as black fantasy.. yeah, that wouldn't fly. It's all semantics, yes, but to have a term that is supposed to look down upon racism be racist itself is just .

augh

would you be able to do so if the entire human cast was black and the movie creator was black? hmm..?

aughhhhhhhhhhhh

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bretly

#146 January 06, 2010, 09:19:41 pm

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"yes i understand your argument but what if the reality was THIS?"

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Roman

#147 January 06, 2010, 10:17:47 pm

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I don't really understand why people think Avatar's story is worth defending in the first place, but I guess if you were surprised by the fact that Sigourney Weaver died, you probably also thought that "unobtanium" was a really clever name.

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Roman

#148 January 06, 2010, 10:19:44 pm

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It's also really lame when people bring up The Last Samurai as if nobody has ever made the same complaint about that shitty movie.

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Mateui

#149 January 06, 2010, 10:25:52 pm

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Look people, I'm not defending the film at all, and my comment about The Last Samurai is lame how? I only brought it up because it's so similar to Avatar. Both films have this oppressor's fantasy thing going on in them. I don't see what there is to argue about. I also brought up the 'what if the maker was black?' as a philosophical discussion point, you know, to take the discussion somewhere.. I'm not arguing with anyone because I do agree with what's been said. My only hesitation is to call this whole thing a "white" fantasy. That's it.

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bretly

#150 January 06, 2010, 10:28:37 pm

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you are not taking the discussion anywhere by asking "what if the maker was black", there is literally no reason to ask that question

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bretly

#151 January 06, 2010, 10:30:30 pm

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Quote from: Roman on January 06, 2010, 10:17:47 pm

you probably also thought that "unobtanium" was a really clever name.

id prefer to think the use of unobtanium was just a bad joke

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Niitaka

#152 January 07, 2010, 05:06:26 am

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not a very original one at that ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtainium it has been used since at least the 1950s)

Mateui, you're right. If you choose to generalize it, yes, it's an oppressor fantasy. It's also a colonial fantasy, and one where whites have a long history of domination and exploitation. It's not a reach to call it a white fantasy.

bretly is correct in pointing out that you're ignoring the reality of OUR SOCIETY by trying to generalize it so much. it's like trying to say YES GENOCIDE IS BAD but refusing to condemn Germany during WW2 because "not all Germans think that way. WHAT IF the jews were exterminating germans?"

It's a hypothetical that has no bearing on the situation at all, because the reality is that white oppression was and still is a prominent issue, and it's important to be as specific as possible when discussing them.

Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 05:16:37 am by Niitaka

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im_so_tired

#153 January 07, 2010, 05:36:00 am

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Quote from: Niitaka on January 07, 2010, 05:06:26 am

not a very original one at that ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtainium it has been used since at least the 1950s)

Mateui, you're right. If you choose to generalize it, yes, it's an oppressor fantasy. It's also a colonial fantasy, and one where whites have a long history of domination and exploitation. It's not a reach to call it a white fantasy.

bretly is correct in pointing out that you're ignoring the reality of OUR SOCIETY by trying to generalize it so much. it's like trying to say YES GENOCIDE IS BAD but refusing to condemn Germany during WW2 because "not all Germans think that way. WHAT IF the jews were exterminating germans?"

It's a hypothetical that has no bearing on the situation at all, because the reality is that white oppression was and still is a prominent issue, and it's important to be as specific as possible when discussing them.

thank you.

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crone_lover720

#154 January 07, 2010, 05:40:14 am

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also a big part of it is the role of the white male in media and the film industry. like I said earlier in the thread, this is not something some guy just made up for an article, this is an actual problem that exists (not just in sci-fiction!) and to say "no it's not about jake being a white guy, it's just colonial/oppressor fantasy" is a cop out. this is boring, I feel stupid for talking about something so trite for so long. if anyone makes it to this post and still doesn't get it you're really really dumb read a book

since mark's trailer is gone forever here's a new one that's really good and possibly related

Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 05:42:00 am by earlchip

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cowardknower

#155 January 07, 2010, 05:45:16 am

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guys we are getting away from the main problem with this movie: it sucks.

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cowardknower

#156 January 07, 2010, 05:45:49 am

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I felt like it was objectively bad when I saw it.

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Niitaka

#157 January 07, 2010, 06:53:18 am

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yeah i mean beyond LETS TAKE A CRITICAL LOOK AT THIS MOVIE HMM it's also a shitty movie.

also earlchip what the hell ahaha. the best part is the mouth-breathing.

Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 06:57:49 am by Niitaka

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Parker

#158 January 07, 2010, 07:49:45 am

more cowbell!
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Quote from: earlchip on January 07, 2010, 05:40:14 am

if anyone makes it to this post and still doesn't get it you're really really dumb read a book

I GET it, and also agree with it, but please recommend a quality, respected book on the subject. <---- this is totally serious, i feel i need to emphasize that

Also, yes, Avatar is a bad FILM, but as mindless entertainment, it really can't be beat.

(I was gonna mention that Die Hard is a quality mindless movie, but even THAT movie takes more intelligence than Avatar)

Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 07:51:51 am by JOJOFACE

http://www.fallingbot.com/

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Niitaka

#159 January 07, 2010, 08:19:10 am

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Quote from: JOJOFACE on January 07, 2010, 07:49:45 am

I GET it, and also agree with it, but please recommend a quality, respected book on the subject. <---- this is totally serious, i feel i need to emphasize that

Also, yes, Avatar is a bad FILM, but as mindless entertainment, it really can't be beat.

(I was gonna mention that Die Hard is a quality mindless movie, but even THAT movie takes more intelligence than Avatar)

what kind of book are you looking for? also google scholar is helpful at a time like this (or if you dont want to leave the computer)

if you mean film specifically, ill leave that to earlchip but if you are talking about colonialism as a cultural thing i can dig some stuff up

Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 08:22:13 am by Niitaka

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Parker

#160 January 07, 2010, 08:35:53 am

more cowbell!
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kind of more racially centered. i'm quite aware of colonialism, but something more specific would be pretty nice.

http://www.fallingbot.com/

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