Topic: I think the Death Penalty should just... (Read 2566 times)

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A 17 page article done by David Grann about an unemployed mechanic, Cameron Todd Willingham, who lost three children, two of them twins, to a house fire around Christmas (1991). After an investigation by the fire inspector it was later deemed that Cameron was the arson who allegedly started the fire. He was later put to death by lethal injection in 2004. Recently however, this conclusion was overturned by forensics. Some specialists even go as far as saying "They were 99% sure that Cameron was innocent". The title of the article is called "Trial By Fire" and the subheading is "Did Texas execute an innocent man?".

I'm under the impression that David brought the whole story to light as he kept up with the whole story, maybe wrong though (I haven't read the whole article). The article in the link is very descriptive and honestly I just feel that Cameron was wronged on so many occasions. He had no real motive, his actions spoke louder then words, the appeal process was often overlooked and updated appeal reports were not even fully reviewed (how can you not even have the time of day to look at an appeal when a MAN'S LIFE IS ON THE LINE?). Texas is one of the few states that actually pay up to $80,000 dollars a year for any person wrongfully excused for timed served and $20,000 dollars for the rest of the victim's life. With that aside, I think it's definitely not enough! Why? Because people who are dead cannot claim any money and most certainly cannot ressurected...

Honestly, even being wrongfully imprisoned for 20 years is too much and money will NEVER make up for lost time. Death sentences however is MUCH worst. Especially when some fucking slapnut is not even taking appeals seriously. Imagine being prosecuted for murdering your own 3 children... His wife also cursed him to death.

Well here is the article and here is a quick video I found.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann?currentPage=1

Here's a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYOSh9wpCkI
Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 07:15:18 am by The Ghost
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That's a sad story man. I've never ever been a fan of the death penalty no matter the crime. Also as it just so happens I was JUST reading these two articles that are pretty related and interesting..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8247319.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8243991.stm

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With life imprisonment, if you're found innocent you lost a lot of time but at least you have the chance to GO ON LIVING afterwards.  But you can't UNDO the death penalty if it turns out the guy was innocent.  It's the simplest argument but man I think this is the only one you need to see that the death penalty is fucked up.
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I think the best way to punish crimes would be to come up with a way to wipe out the criminal`s memories then they can start fresh,I know what you migth be thinking "What if they victims try to find him and kill him" well the criminal could choose a place to be dropped off after his memory is gone before they do it.
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I think the death peanalty should be reserved for the most horific crimes, and even then only when ABSOLUTE proof that they are the culprits should it be carried out. I think its sad when some one innocent has there life taken and then afterwoulds it's found that there innocent.
My father was always saying that the death penalty should be abolished and instead put the bastards into a cell; never to come out untill there time is up with no chance of getting out early and ONLY living on the bear essentials.
personaly i'm not sure how its done in america but i think over here in England that there way, WAY to soft on criminals. I also think the justice system is flawed, its not about justice any more, its about who can tell the better story.
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I think the death peanalty should be reserved for the most horific crimes
Is a case where a man supposedly murders his children not a horrific crime? If the man was guilty, surely death penalty supporters would have approved of it's use... as they did. The problem was that the man was not guilty and no one even really cared. You can see where reserving it for just the "most horrific crimes" doesn't even work... even under the circumstance when guilt was not even fully established they went ahead and carried out lethal injection on an innocent man. What if that innocent person was you? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? I understand you don't think this man should have been put to death but saying it should be reserved for the most horrific crimes doesn't change the fact that innocents get caught up in the system.

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Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 02:53:08 pm by Mama Luigi
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and even then only when ABSOLUTE proof that they are the culprits should it be carried out.

maybye i should have bolded the word absolute.

i understand what you are saying, but like i said, absolute proof that without a doubt they can say that this person is the culprate with 100% confidence.
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I think that if you behave like a predator (in the lion, shark, etc sense) you should be treated like one (in the they get shot sense) but then the risks of killing an innocent blah blah blah so leave it for when there are videos or pictures that prove you're evil
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Lethal injection is a bad way to go. It's like having a heart attack (literally, they stop your heart while you are fully awake).

One of the big problems with the death penalty is that it is entirely dependent on human error. Human error runs rampant even in the DNA forensics labs, where certain pieces of evidence are overlooked, mistreated, or thrown away before the appeals case. In fact, in Texas there was a huge problem with DNA lab misconduct in 2006, as well as in other states. It stands to truth that even the most absolute indicator of crime -- DNA testing -- is flawed, and ill-suited to using the death penalty.

Not to mention that the costs necessary to maintain the death penalty often bankrupt the immediate area. In California, one of our districts underwent a series of death penalty cases which, in the end, cost the district upwards of 50 million dollars. The state pays a portion of it, yes, but this is the 50 million dollars -left over- to the city. Trial and appellate proceedings cost lots of money -- and some argue that maintaining a facility for lifers is cheaper than having the death penalty. What better way to invest that 50 million on the things that might actually help prevent crime? Public parks, for instance. A library. More police officers. Things that make a community better.

Proponents of the death penalty argue that it's the best way for a country to tell its citizens that if you do this, you will DIE. However, this 'deterrence factor' of the death penalty only goes as far as the murderer is sane (which isn't very far). Most murders are committed in crimes of passion where the murderer is not thinking "hey, if I do this, I might get the death penalty." And the serial killers obviously aren't deterred because they get a kick out of it. The only demographic the death penalty deters is the common person who would not ordinarily kill anyone in the first place!

The only reason people want the death penalty is because of a deep anger towards the people who kill our loved ones. We don't want to subject our mode of justice to the blind ideals of the lynch mob. Nor do we want to tout absolutism in the face of the blind inadequacies and injustices of the bureaucratic system. There are no absolutes.

But...suffice it to say, if guilt is proven beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt -- like if we find a murderer in the red-hot act of killing someone -- where human interpretation of the evidence is at its basal minimum (to the point where human error can be minimized as if you can SEE the act), then I've always been a fan of solitary confinement for life without parole. I'm aware that there's a major equity flaw here (OMG JON LOOK YOU AREn'T TREATING ALL CRIMINALS THE SAME), but let's face it, sometimes you need to do something extra special for all the David Westerfields and DC snipers of the world. And at least that can be taken back (and psychologically repaired).
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If johnny was a mass murderer and killed a thousand children with a rusty spoon and ate their organs (and filmed and youtubed everything), would you really care if he had a heart attack?

I wouldn't. Throw him to the sharks.
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Real cases are hardly ever that black and white, but if that ever happened my advocacy of life solitary without parole still stands. Every once in awhile some fucker gets caught bad so this actually allows society to slake its bloodthirst without spilling blood. My advocacy stands as an outlet for social structural violence without the obvious irrevocability of the death penalty. Note furthermore that this is only for people who beyond the shadow of a doubt committed these crimes (ie posting videos of themselves doing it). There will be cases of people who committed worse crimes being simply incarcerated, but at the very least the retributive sense of justice is fulfilled in that subjective manner somewhere in the world!

That's right, I'm calling out your premise of vigilantism and aff-turning it to my advo. You have the choice of attacking the previous statement, but in doing so you are forced to drop the argument for vigilante-style 'throw the fukr to the sharks' justice. Otherwise you contradict the idea of subjective (felt) justice.

You seem to be a life for a life guy yet you point out that he killed a thousand kids. Are you saying that his one life is going to cosmically equate the thousand kids he's killed? See, even something as basal as an eye for an eye is proven inadequate. Again though, we can mitigate the passion behind this sentiment through a totally nonviolent course of action.
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This is not "life for a life" buddy, when a dog goes bad and kills people he's injected with poison. This isn't about abstract notions of justice and morals it's about whether it's convenient or not to keep alive a creature with no purpose other than to kill people for no reason
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This is not "life for a life" buddy, when a dog goes bad and kills people he's injected with poison. This isn't about abstract notions of justice and morals it's about whether it's convenient or not to keep alive a creature with no purpose other than to kill people for no reason

But when you can't be 100% sure that the person is guilty, how can you justify that they need to be killed?
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Death Penatly is dumb.   The peace group I am in at my school held an event ont his, a panel discussion with Illinois Coalition to End the Death Penalty, Gary Gauger (guy from a town in my county who was wrongfully accused of killing his parents (story) and a member of Murders Victims Families (an organization of people who have had murders in their families...etc that are still against the death penalty).
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What's a peace group :)
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What's a peace group :)

they sit around and don't start fights duh  :welp:
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We are a group of students promoting peace at our school.  We've had many events so far and more planned this semester.  We had one on the history of the Israel/Palestine conflict, and the speaker was the politcal science teacher here (he's been to Gaza many times) and along with this we showcased the Eyes Wide Open exhibit.  We had the death penalty one, we had one where some members of Iraq Veterans Against the War came and spoke (we had a lot of conservatives come holding signs it got out of hand but we made front page of the paper), we did a film showing of Invisible Children and Taxi on the Dark Side, we had Peace on the Green Fest (a festival with the environmental club) that had bands, noodles and company came out, amnesty international had a booth, an organic farm and vineyard around here had a booth, we did tye die, drum circle...etc.
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But when you can't be 100% sure that the person is guilty, how can you justify that they need to be killed?


Quote from: Me

I think that if you behave like a predator (in the lion, shark, etc sense) you should be treated like one (in the they get shot sense) but then the risks of killing an innocent blah blah blah so leave it for when there are videos or pictures that prove you're evil

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I only believe in the death penalty if there is 100% proof the culprit committed the crime. and then only in extreme cases.
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