Most societies throughout the ages have had strict rules for male and female roles within society. While many religions now regard men and women as total equals, there are still differences concerning what they are expected to do to fulfil their contract with the society they inhabit. For example, even in this modern age, women are expected to have children and those that do not are considered out of the ordinary. Some women who choose a profession over having children view those that do differently as being inferior or having wasted their lives, as do some women who choose to raise a home and family over having a profession. Men do not make this choice, as they are expected in society to seek employment and provide for a family. While it does happen that you get househusbands and so forth, for the most part people have a negative view of them, some believing them to be "slackers" or taking the "woman's role" in the relationship.


Religious attitudes vary concerning the equal treatment of women, but many of the major branches of the world's Abrahamic faiths believe in gender equality. Genesis 1:27 states that "And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them" and, while most people interpret this passage to mean that we are ALL created in G-d's image, some choose to claim that it reinforces gender roles due to the specific statement and splitting of male and female in this passage itself.


Related to this, Transgender people feel that they were born into the wrong body, thus have a hard time adapting to the role they are expected to fulfill in society. Those born male who feel female are unable to fulfil some of the expected roles of their preferred gender, even after surgery - they are unable to have children, do not have periods, and live with the knowledge that not every male will accept them in their new gender role. Likewise, those born female who become male are unable to fully utilise their genitalia to function as a male, are infertile, and generally suffer the same rejection from a large sector of society, sometimes resulting in situations like the movie 'Boys Don't Cry', a tale about a transman being murdered.


International Human Rights Law claims the importance of freedom of expression when it comes to gender issues:


"[/size]freely chosen, modification of bodily appearance or function by medical, surgical or other means) and other experience of gender , including dress, speech and mannerism. Further, in Principle 3, that each person's self-defined gender identity is integral to their personality and is one of the most basic aspects of self-determination, dignity and freedom."

[/size]"The Yogyakarta Principles, which is a document on application of international human rights law, provides definition on gender identity. In the preamble, "gender identity" is understood to refer to each person's deeply felt internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond with the sex assigned at birth, including the person's sense of the body."


SO what are your thoughts? Are gender roles still important in our society? How far should they be encouraged, if at all? Does a man or woman who refuses to live up to gender roles still contribute in the way that they are expected to? Does a diminishing respect for gender roles leave Transgender people in a quandry concerning their condition - after all, if male and female are treated the same in society, aren't we effectively gender neutral? What hurdles might transpeople face when dealing with living as another gender?


What do you think?

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all have opinions concerning women's "duty" to have children. You can check it out in Genesis, Leviticus, and Deut. Unless you want me to bog this down by copying out the passages for you?

Let's not sidetrack this into a RELIGIOUS DEBATE immediately however. The aim of the discussion is gender roles and their importance (or lack of).

oh jesus stop it, none of the abrahamic religions are even close to considering women equals as men.

Actually, Reform and Progressive Judaism BOTH consider women entirely equal to men. Check out any of the position papers by the rabbinical councils. Well people think of the Judges, they tend to forget the role of Deborah, a wise and fearsome judge, who rode into battle against enemies. She was female. There are many passages and stories about important women who saved the people of Israel - there are even festivals where they're honoured (like Purim which was celebrated recently). And moving on to Christianity, the Anglican faith's position concerning women is "different but equal". Anglicanism is the major religion of the UK.

So yeah, there ARE faiths which treat women as equal to men and consider women as equal to men. Just because there are many faiths that DON'T, it in no way reflects upon the entirety of the Abrahamic religions.

the garden of Eden story was in part created as a cop out for belittling women

That section of Genesis shows men in an equally negative light. Using it to belittle women specifically is a little ignorant - although I am aware that some people do that.

Then again, you could also argue that if we didn't have separate pronouns for he/she him/her, etc. that we might not even have a concept of gender other than the recognition of physical attributes, much like we have blondes/brunettes.

This is an interesting point - there've been some studies that show language being linked to understanding and how we conceptualise things. Even simple things like colour can be totally different based on our language and whether we have the words for things or not.

Woman was created from the man's body right? not from the earth as the man was right? Also wasn't the woman's purpose to serve the man? I'm pretty sure I remember hearing that somewhere. They weren't created equally...

Let's take a look at the actual story, shall we, before we jump into "Hey some dude told me such and such".

The first account in Genesis, beginning with 1:27 - the creation of humans.

27 And G-d created man in His own image, in the image of G-d created them; male and female created He them.

28 And G-d blessed them; and G-d said unto them: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth'.

29 And G-d said: 'Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed--to you it shall be for food;

30 and to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is a living soul, I have given every green herb for food' And it was so.

31 And G-d saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Notice no reference to anyone "serving". Notice 1:27 - G-d created both male and female in His image.


Let's look at the SECOND account in Genesis:

2:21 - So the LORD G-d cast a deep sleep upon the man; and, while he slept, He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that spot.
2:22 And the LORD G-d fashioned the rib that He had taken from the man into a woman; and HE brought her to the man.
2:23 - Then the man said, "This one at last Is bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh. This one shall be called Woman, For from man was she taken.
2:24 - Hence a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, so that they become one flesh.

Notice the equality in 2:24? The sense that man and wife make one being, becoming one flesh? I think it's quite a nice metaphor. Certainly nowhere in this account is it describing women as inferior.

That was your point right, that they WEREN'T created equally? Now I'm not going to deny that parts which come later can be interpreted negatively towards women, but we're currently arguing the CREATION of both. Nowhere in the Torah does it claim that they were created unequally, as you claim.

Anyway, Jewish tradition has it that G-d created fish before birds. He created birds before mammals, and then mammals before man. Each time, it is argued, G-d made something more wonderful and complicated. If we ARE viewing man and woman as having different worth in the eyes of G-d (which is a weird notion), surely Him created woman afterwards implies superiority? Hehe.

as for 'women choosing careers over children', all I've got to say is that if you're gonna have children you've got to be ready to put your whole BEING into caring for them and raising them, and that applies to everyone regardless of gender. how exactly that happens is up to the couple or whatever child-parent interface there is

I would concur personally. I feel that it's irresponsible of both parents to create a life and then not to put that life first, regardless of their genders.

]fuast what you're saying about those sects of judasim is interesting though I remain a little skeptical! kind of like how men and women are equal in america, right?

[Well yeah, to an extend definitely. Like there are female rabbis, but a lot less of them than men. I think that's a trend of the society that Judaism is currently a part of - we have women over here in the House of Lords, but obviously less than male members of the Lords. We have (at least by my memory of 2005) five Law Lords in this country, yet one of them was female.
I read a really great article in 'The Week' recently which countered someone's claim that women CAN succeed as long as they're willing to work harder than men. The counter-article claimed that we'd only have TRUE equality if there were as many incompetent women in the upper echelons of business and politics as men, not just competent men, incompetent men, and competent women.

when i read this sentence the image of a geyser of shit spewing feces mightily into the upper atmosphere just popped (pooped) into my head out of nowhere

one out of every six people on the planet belong to a religion which says that women can't serve as clergy, which is to say that only men are fit to relay the will of god.

the old testament is filled this crap that essentially amounts to "slut-shaming," and other gems like dudes are worth fifty bux but women are only worth thirty

and oh man oh man islam is not any better. they've got your run-of-the-mill gender fascism plus an influential extremist minority to boot!


it might be fair to say that many of the major branches of the world's Abrahamic faiths don't really treat women like absolute shit, but to suggest that anything approaching gender equality exists in more than a thimblefull of abrahamic organizations is mad dumb. 

Hmm, quite emotive, but I get your point. You're right - as I stated earlier, many religious groups DO use religious texts to persecute, and not just women. However, like I said, many of the branches of the major Abrahamic faiths don't. To claim that I'm being "mad dumb" for bringing up information based on the religious positions of various faiths is a little weird.

Oh, and where did I say that gender equality actually, or fully, exists? I said "considers". Just because you consider men and women to be equals doesn't mean that gender problems in society are going to suddenly be fixed. Men earn around 1/5 more money than women in the same positions when you get into the non-public sector professional world, yet we live in a society where women are proclaimed to be equal. Considering us to be equal, and then acting upon that, is not necessarily the reality.

I also pointed out that the CONSIDERING of women and men being equal doesn't fully equate that in a society where men and women aren't ALREADY equal, hence why there are so few female lords in the UK, so few female managers and so on, in comparison with men. In a society like that, it's natural that there will be fewer women vicars, bishops, and rabbis. It reflects the overall.


So YES - I will repeat, the point of the discussion wasn't meant to be religion, even though it has evolved to that. It's concerning gender roles and, more specifically, transgender people. It's fine if you consider all religions to be women-hating cults, but what do you (or anyone else) feel about gender roles in our society?