I'm still here (because I'm some sort of masochist or something), and I apologize for overreacting. I could try to defend myself further, but I know it won't help anything. If I keep coming back, I'll try to avoid using language that offends you on this forum.

That good to hear Alec. Although, Vellfire, I have one issue with the "not offending someone" thing that kind of came to mind. Namely, that I think Alec has the perception that very few people are offended by the term 'bitch' when used as a slur or in a negative context (or shakily, in any context at all).

If its the fact that its a slur I'd say that probably reasonable to think its always unacceptable, however, there are arguably offensive terms and things that I say but that only an extreme minority are offended by in the way that you are attacking them as a group. Such as "bible thumper", "basement dweller", "retard" and outside of direct insults, see: all curse words.

Also, (in response to Earlchip) using alternative terms DOES make you sound weaker. Its like saying "poop" instead of "shit". It sounds like (to most people) that you can't handle the term yourself when you use those alternative non-offensive words. Rather than merely try to not offend anyone around you.

I'm NOT saying that they are equal to the word "bitch". I'm saying many think that they are. I think that was Alec argument, rather than "I know some people so its ok" it more like "So few people are offended by this that to me it seems unreasonable to stop, because if I do, I shouldn't say any of the other things that I see as arguably more or less offensive in my mind but still 'ok'."

Many people, such as myself for most of my life, thought that the word 'bitch' was offensive merely because it was a "curse word" rather than a slur. And I always saw curse words as something I'd say when someone tells me I shouldn't. (as in, minor level of "stick it to authority") I think this perception comes FROM the fact that it can in fact be used negatively but outside of the context of being a slur, as Alec arguably used it as. Effectively making it "complain complain complain". I know that because the word has ties to being a slur against women that it suggests that the person using the word means 'You are complaining like a woman" but I honestly don't think this perception of the word is that common. The best argument against using it (other than the fact that in THIS SPECIFIC PLACE it offends people) is that other people who do think that way about the word bitch will be reinforced into their misogynistic ways by OVERHEARING someone say "bitch bitch bitch".

I'm honestly under the impression that at least 80% of people who use the word bitch in a non-anti-women way. I can't know what people are thinking, but I can can get a good idea by the way they say it, their body language, and in cases where I know them: their typical attitude and personality. And through out my life its always seemed this way. Then again, this is just vague memory of past instances of my life, so others probably have experienced different.

also I think a big reason people go on the offensive/extreme defensive (like Alec did) when you point out that they used a slur is that they perceive that you are pointing out a moral deficiency, specifically in a time when they had no actual intention to be morally deficient (yes, sometimes good people sometimes feel the need/urge to be morally deficient, schaden freud is an example, as is thievery, lying, etc.) So they perceive that you are essentially calling them a bad person and that they should feel bad. If they WERE trying to be "slickly" offensive/morally deficient then you wouldn't get such defensive reactions. You'd get agreeance, and maybe some malevolent laughter or "*shrug* don't care if I offend you, because I hate you." attitudes.

You could take the idea that this just means that 99% people are baby's that can't take moral criticism, but then what are you left with? It means that when people feel bad about something they said or did but its something they always took for granted they'll feel guilty for a moment and then realize they've always done this and just get angry and rebellious and perceive you as a 'nanny' figure. Basically "FUCK YOU AND THE HIGH HORSE YOU RODE ON" is their thought process.

Then comes the question: Have you ever HATED an individual? (Not asking if you do now, I mean ever) I have! (I no longer do) And if I could have gotten away with it I would have done everything in my power to hurt them (mostly high school bullies, but others as well), that includes slurs like bitch! Regardless of the social pressures telling me what was ok and what was not. Hell, let alone slurs, most people FANTASIZE ABOUT KILLING/TORTURING PEOPLE THEY HATE. Did this make me a bad person back then, being willing to stoop low to hurt someone? IDK. But I don't begrudge people who feel that way though because I comprehend the mindset that they have.

Before I close, I want to reassert that I agree that Alec shouldn't use the word bitch, especially here on these forums. These are just thoughts that come to mind when it comes to offending people in general.

i'm about to leave the house so i don't have time to reply to your whole post but it's not an "extreme minority" that is offended by retard and it's one of the words you absolutely should not use ok???  like, it's really jarring to see it thrown in with "bible thumper" and "basement dweller", not even vaguely in the same class of words

argh, ok. I should've said moron or idiot. But point still stands (thus far). When you call someone a retard they don't generally get offended because you are using a slur against mentally 'disabled' people (Which technically btw, idiot and moron are as well). They get offended because you are insulting their inteligence. in fact most people get offended because you are comparing them to a mentally 'disabled' person. (old point that I've brought up before comes to mind: retard, idiot, and moron all used to be regular medical terms. And the term "special" which was created in response to everyone using those words as insults, became an insult)

but they do say something different, they use a different target to get the negative connotation. fuss and bellyache are essentially calling an adult childish/immature/underdeveloped. bitch on the other hand is completely adult, and is essentially calling a man or a woman "a woman" or "a bad, nagging woman"

Honestly my use of the word over fuss or bellyache is the hard consonants and general terseness of the word. I've been thinking of proper alternatives though and I think "cry" is a pretty decent one.

Moan is decently 'strong' I'd say. Though it has no hard consonants...

that's why the person you CALLED a retard would be offended, but we're not talking about them, we're talking about mentally disabled people who you're comparing the person you're mad at to.  i'll just refer you here: http://www.r-word.org/r-word-effects-of-the-word.aspx

IDK though. If my younger brother does or says something not very smart, and I call him a retard (there is no one else around) who am I offending other than him? (I have not done this BTW)

That public transportation scenario mentioned on that site: Yeah, I do think that's wrong and could make some people uncomfortable or afraid.

Am I suggesting that people call each other retards in private? sort of. They probably should not at all so they don't get into the habit (where is might make a more public appearance), and obviously insults aren't good IN GENERAL. but I don't think when people call each other retarded they begin hating or pitying mentally disabled people any more than they already do if they do at all for that matter.

idiot and moron have lost their connotations to mentally handicapped individuals, retard hasn't.  please don't compare the two.

Yes, exactly, that's why I said that I should have used idiot or moron. I rarely have used the term retard, but I have. Again I don't think I've ever used it in the presence of someone with such a disability.