Topic: U.S Presidential Primary Thread (Read 20603 times)

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by the way at the time I wanted to vote for Bush too, but I was only 17 so I couldn't
You guys say "I was only n years old" like that somehow makes it all right. Are you implying that it's impossible to have a well-informed opinion when you're barely legal voting age? You should be saying "I wanted to vote for Bush, but that was back when I didn't have a clue about the world."

By the way, it's been about 7 years since the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan in late 2001 and about 5 years since Iraq became a target. I was 14 at the time of the 9/11 attacks. I don't know when exactly you were 17, but it's not like there haven't been enough notable events that might have made you question the Bush authority. Unless you also agreed with, say, first deploying a team of weapons inspectors who find absolutely no evidence to back up an invasion and then invade anyway.

can i frequent one fucking topic without there being a steel argument in it
Steel is participating in the topic.

You are not.

EDIT: missed this one:
Sorry, I know that this is an old post. Anyhow, this made me think, wasn't Abraham Lincoln an atheist?
I wasn't sure, but according to Wikipedia he "attended churches, but never officially acquired membership in a church".
Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 07:12:55 am by Dada
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I dunno, I don't want to go off topic, but I'm still waiting for Steel to tell me about psychoanalysis and teach me some cool new Psychology terms :)

You guys say "I was only n years old" like that somehow makes it all right. Are you implying that it's impossible to have a well-informed opinion when you're barely legal voting age? You should be saying "I wanted to vote for Bush, but that was back when I didn't have a clue about the world."

By the way, it's been about 7 years since the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan in late 2001 and about 5 years since Iraq became a target. I was 14 at the time of the 9/11 attacks. I don't know when exactly you were 17, but it's not like there haven't been enough notable events that might have made you question the Bush authority. Unless you also agreed with, say, first deploying a team of weapons inspectors who find absolutely no evidence to back up an invasion and then invade anyway
now this is an interesting derail!!

I don't have much time now, but I'll say right here that I'm not going to argue that it's alright. It was dumb of me to be sure, but I'm not really afraid to admit it because it was in the past. I have much more informed views now, and I'm glad I moved on.

Secondly, I really disliked Bush! I wasn't punkvoter.com but I never thought he was a good president at all. I just really disliked kerry too

Plus you're from a foreign country, so your experience is obviously different from mine. I'll dare to say you were maybe LESS informed than I, riding on 'bush should never be re-elected' rather than any info on his opponent? Again, I'm not going to bother arguing now who was better, my point is simply that I thought I was taking all sides of the conflict into consideration
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rather than any info on his opponent?

Well, y'see, you know how everyone has been shitting their bricks about the primaries this election? Perhaps if you (all of you) had been more active in the 2004 primaries, we wouldn't have all these problems we do today. I'm just sayin' is all.
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You guys say "I was only n years old" like that somehow makes it all right. Are you implying that it's impossible to have a well-informed opinion when you're barely legal voting age? You should be saying "I wanted to vote for Bush, but that was back when I didn't have a clue about the world."

By the way, it's been about 7 years since the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan in late 2001 and about 5 years since Iraq became a target. I was 14 at the time of the 9/11 attacks. I don't know when exactly you were 17, but it's not like there haven't been enough notable events that might have made you question the Bush authority. Unless you also agreed with, say, first deploying a team of weapons inspectors who find absolutely no evidence to back up an invasion and then invade anyway.


I would respectfully disagree with your characterization of this situation.

Regime change in Iraq is a policy which predates the Bush presidency, signed into law by President Clinton (the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998).  The weapons inspectors in their testimony to the UN mentioned that Hussein's regime had deliberately provided misleading information, a material breach of the UN resolution (and the 17 that preceeded it).  Regardless, the believed stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction were only one of many issues with Saddam Hussein.  Hussein's regime was a known sponsor of international terrorism, a proven, indisputable fact, so that reason has been validated.  Hussein had promoted instability in the region by threatening his neighbors and his own people, including mass murder of his own people, including chemical weapons attacks (which is a good reason to suspect he had such weapons since he used them) and attacking a neighboring country.  Hussein repeatedly attacked U.S. planes and those of its allies patrolling the no fly zones, which are acts of war.  Hussein also attempted to assassinate President George H.W. Bush, another act of war.  Documents and sources since Hussein's being removed from power also demonstrate that while the stockpiles that had been believed to exist were no longer there / removed, Hussein clearly had active programs ready to launch to reconstitute them, including a nuclear program (see this translation of documents seized from Hussein's government - http://iraqdocs.blogspot.com/).  So the threat was there, it had just not fully gathered at the time of the invasion.  The incredible corruption revealed in the "oil for food program" in the aftermath has also been extraordinary.

Some of the intelligence was clearly wrong/incomplete, but it again predated President Bush coming to power.  Saddam's ties to Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden were regarded as common knowledge in the news media and on Capitol Hill prior to 2001.  Amazingly, these same news organizations and politicians now regard it as a complete invention of the Bush administration and can't remember even their own reporting.  Some of these reports are still out there online - here's a video on YouTube which illustrates this point - it is an ABC News report from 1999 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18uxVYN-5iY - 2 years before President Bush took office.  Moreover, there were far more intelligence sources showing the same information than those in the U.S. both before and after President Bush took office.

It can be said that the war was still a bad decision, given the expense and loss of life and the benefit does not outweigh the cost.  That's a legitimate view point one can hold.  But that doesn't make it appropriate to turn this into some grand evil plan that President Bush, Prime Minister Blair, etc. carried out, because in order for that to be true, they would have had to have extraordinary supernatural powers to manipulate intelligence predating their administrations in not only their own countries, but in many others.
Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 04:29:26 pm by RWildcat
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Sorry, I know that this is an old post. Anyhow, this made me think, wasn't Abraham Lincoln an atheist?
I dunno but he said this!
"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."

- Abraham Lincoln, American president (1809-1865).
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How can you not understand why I'd think you're being apathetic? It's not like I am some bandwagoner pal, I've always been PASSIONATE about things I am interested in, this isn't new, I've done this about sports, videogames, whatever. It's not UNHEALTHY or PAULSIE. I'm not sticking my fingers in my ears and yelling LA LA LA LA LA when people bring up bad things about my candidate (i've actually said many times that obama's UHC plan is not the best and that a bunch of the supporters are uninformed, I have also said that the uninformed masses are important to win so drawing them in is not a bad thing.)

This is an election I am excited about dawg. I am incredibly inspired by Barack; he has so many of the values that I have come to register with in my adult life. He is a role model for me in the fact that public service is something I have always been interested in (Even when I VOTED FOR BUSH HU HU HU, it wasn't because i was an economic or even fully social conservative, I voted for him because he was pro life which looking back was an immature and dumb decision, I was still interested in HELPING PEOPLE. Contrary to popular belief I've always been a good person and always been somewhat of a socialist). You have supported him since 04, cool good for you man that's awesome. You act as if I'm some sort of sheep or bad person for being very excited in his campaign and getting into OBAMA MEMES, however politics and this campaign has been a big part of my life for the past 3-4 months. I have volunteered for the campaign for the past month or two, put in tons of time phonebanking, going door to door etc. I have been strongly thinking about dropping everything and applying to work on the campaign. It's something I'm PASSIONATE about, and that doesn't make me "the same" as a paulsie. Your problem with Obama Memes also puzzles me. Memes like YES WE CAN, CHANGE et all are helpful to the campaign for many reasons:

Visibility: Better than signs and commercials, things like the deepdive video and slogans like that get the campaign out there in bite sized pieces

They are also a rallying call for the campaign. EVERY campaign has done this, "I like IKE" "This is Clinton Country" etc. I truly believe that Barack is a once in a lifetime candidate so excuse me for getting a little GIDDY about the campaign.
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I dunno but he said this!
"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."

- Abraham Lincoln, American president (1809-1865).

I believe this was in reference to a conversation about the separation of Church and State, though. Taken in that context, that is not necessarily an Atheist quote, simply a secular one combined with a non-denominational Christian one. It would be nice if someone could find a full record of that conversation, but since the Atheist movement has picked up on it, they have tried extensively to keep only that line.
Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 05:53:03 pm by Jeff
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I believe this was in reference to a conversation about the separation of Church and State, though. Taken in that context, that is not necessarily an Atheist quote, simply a secular one combined with a non-denominational Christian one. It would be nice if someone could find a full record of that conversation, but since the Atheist movement has picked up on it, they have tried extensively to keep only that line.
Yeah that is true.  I never said he was an Atheist.  He could be a deist or something.
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so guys i had to do exit polling at my highschool today and probably 60-70% of all the people i questioned were voting for Huckabee. i got maybe a handful of McCain supporters. on the democratic side i got slightly more Obama than Clinton. granted I do live in Lynchburg but still it was pretty alarming!
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If Huckabee becomes president I am going back to Poland
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If Huckabee becomes president I am going back to Poland
It won't happen. First off, McCain is secure for the nomination. Second, Huckabee will not risk breaking the republican party by running as an independent. Third, a "real conservative" does not have a chance against either Hilary or Obama.
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Secondly, I really disliked Bush! I wasn't punkvoter.com but I never thought he was a good president at all. I just really disliked kerry too

Plus you're from a foreign country, so your experience is obviously different from mine. I'll dare to say you were maybe LESS informed than I, riding on 'bush should never be re-elected' rather than any info on his opponent? Again, I'm not going to bother arguing now who was better, my point is simply that I thought I was taking all sides of the conflict into consideration
Whether you were more informed than I was, I don't know. One thing that you should know, though, is that we do get access to a considerable amount of substantial material regarding American politics here in the Netherlands. (I'm actually not sure whether we are very interested in politics as a country, but our elections get turnouts of over 80%, so I think that counts for something.) At least, I do think I was pretty informed about what Kerry was all about. Although there were only two candidates in the end, it wasn't simply a case of "anyone but Bush" to me, despite the fact Kerry wasn't an ideal candidate.

I would respectfully disagree with your characterization of this situation.

There are some things that are to be kept in mind:
  • Regime change, on its own, is not something you'd go to war for. Nor are Iraq's poor human rights record, their attacking of U.S. planes, or "spreading democracy", as it was called.
  • The belief of Saddam Hussein having weapons of mass destructions was the meat of the rationale for invasion. The evidence presented to solidify that belief was widely criticized even before the invasion, and the weapons inspectors never found any hard evidence leading to said weapons.
  • The Bush administration has repeatedly made false claims in order to rally support for the Iraq war. We've known some of those claims were false before the invasion.
  • We've never found conclusive evidence that supports the claim of Saddam Hussein cooperating with al-Qaeda. He might have been a supporter of the group, but that's something different.
While it's true that Iraq under Saddam Hussein was a terrible country that routinely abused human rights, that on its own is no reason to go to war for. The weapons that were allegedly there did not exist (after all, they had ended their program in 1991), and there was never any solid reason to assume they were there. Clearly, the Bush administration wanted to wage war, despite there being only a really flimsy reason for doing so.

By the way, I've actually never heard of Saddam Hussein trying to kill George W. Bush, when did that happen? I know that some guy once threw a grenade at him that didn't explode, but that didn't exactly seem like an organized attempt.

Also I hope this topic now doesn't turn into an Iraq war debate, since that's not exactly my intention! I just post this here in response to what RWildcat states. He makes it seem as though there was a plausible reason to invade, and I disagree with that.
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Regime change, on its own, is not something you'd go to war for. Nor are Iraq's poor human rights record, their attacking of U.S. planes, or "spreading democracy", as it was called.
This is a bit (actually very) controversial. America has a massive military apparatus and had so even before Bush sized it up. There are many Americans who feel the justification for this massive military is that the United States should use it to help people around the world. Now then I realize that this is under harsh criticism, but it is not some EVIL DOMINATION PLAN or even something done out of needless arrogance. Many in the US believe that if people are having a hard time in the world that we should do what we can to help them out. This is kind of a fundamental American value: the desire to help others (or at least people want to claim it is and be seen that way). I say this because, and i will bring up the overused example, that not just the republicans voted for the "war". It was a decision made from both sides based on both the situation at the time, but also on beliefs that many Americans on both sides of the fence hold dear. I don't know whether this opinion is "right" or not, but I am explaining to you that while it might appear cut and dry that one nation should not interfere in other nations affairs, it is not so certain here in the United States.

The belief of Saddam Hussein having weapons of mass destructions was the meat of the rationale for invasion. The evidence presented to solidify that belief was widely criticized even before the invasion, and the weapons inspectors never found any hard evidence leading to said weapons.
As far as weapons of mass destruction, Saddam said that he had, indeed, dismantled all of the WMDs that were in his country when the evidence was acquired of them some decade or more ago. He did say, however, that he kept the facilities needed to make them and that should the need arise he would not have hesitated to reinstitute the program if Iran became a serious and aggressive threat to his country.

We've never found conclusive evidence that supports the claim of Saddam Hussein cooperating with al-Qaeda. He might have been a supporter of the group, but that's something different.
Actually, the FBI interview with Saddam -- he was told he was being interviewed privately by a high ranking government official, so you can probably take most of this as true -- turned up a few things. Saddam said that he would never cooperate with al-Qaeda or even support them simply because they represented values he did not hold true such as non-secular government, and also because they represented a destabilizing force of extremists when Saddam and his party's main platform was political and religious stability.

While it's true that Iraq under Saddam Hussein was a terrible country that routinely abused human rights, that on its own is no reason to go to war for.
As far as human rights violations, I will not argue with you there, however (and I am sure I will take flak for this) it is important to note that while the regime instituted political violence and repression, it was one of the more modern states in the Middle East, it was secular, and for the most part, under Saddam there was no sectarian violence as now grips the nation both in terms of the US occupation and the general citizens and government.

By the way, I've actually never heard of Saddam Hussein trying to kill George W. Bush, when did that happen? I know that some guy once threw a grenade at him that didn't explode, but that didn't exactly seem like an organized attempt.
I also have not heard anything about an assassination attempt.
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After rereading my post, I'd like to add for clarity, that I am not necessarily arguing in favor of launching the war. I was just trying to add some answers to Omeg's questions.
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As far as weapons of mass destruction, Saddam said that he had, indeed, dismantled all of the WMDs that were in his country when the evidence was acquired of them some decade or more ago. He did say, however, that he kept the facilities needed to make them and that should the need arise he would not have hesitated to reinstitute the program if Iran became a serious and aggressive threat to his country.

I know people in intelligence and foreign affairs agencies in government, and the general consensus seems to be that Saddam wasn't being taken seriously even by his own staff - he had been throwing money to people saying 'MAKE ME NUKES AND RAIL GUNS' for decades but they just embezzled it and filed false reports on research progress and such.

That’s right, you have the young gaming with the old(er), white people gaming with black people, men and women, Asian countries gaming with the EU, North Americans gaming with South Americans. Much like world sporting events like the Wolrd Cup, or the Olympics will bring together different nations in friendly competition, (note the recent Asian Cup; Iraq vs. Saudi Arabia, no violence there) we come together. The differences being, we are not divided by our nationalities and we do it 24-7, and on a personal level.

We are a community without borders and without colours, the spirit and diversity of the gaming community is one that should be looked up to, a spirit and diversity other groups should strive toward.
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Well, y'see, you know how everyone has been shitting their bricks about the primaries this election? Perhaps if you (all of you) had been more active in the 2004 primaries, we wouldn't have all these problems we do today. I'm just sayin' is all.
stop with the insights please :( we know

like I said, I was too young to vote anyway. also iirc his bad side only really started to show up once he started trying to be the IDEAL CANDIDATE. I was too young to experience the democratic primaries, so I dunno when exactly his campaign started to go downhill


which reminds me: in addition to my response to the points Dada brought up, I wanted to say that my reason for writing "when I was 17" was just to show that I was too young to actually vote. it does show that it was a different time though, I'm 20 now and a lot has changed since then
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:woordz:
Just posting to say that I don't really intend to go toe-to-toe with Jeff, because his post more or less sheds light on the situation without vocally agreeing or disagreeing with what I've said. We really don't have to debate some of these things. (Like whether "spreading democracy" is a cause worth fighting for. Obviously I know that it's a good cause, and every self-respecting democracy should use its ability to criticize other countries when they do something wrong. If you're going to war, you might as well help democracy on its way while you're there "fixing things" anyway, but it's debatable how strong a reason it is.)

Thing is, there are always a lot of things you are unsure about. But I strongly believe that the rationale for invasion the U.S. had at the time were very flimsy and not worth violating another country's sovereignty for.

EDIT:
iirc his bad side only really started to show up once he started trying to be the IDEAL CANDIDATE.
Yeah, it was Kerry who at some point said "if you don't do well at school, you'll wind up in Iraq". Which is pretty much the worst thing he could have possibly said, since he painted a negative image of the soldiers serving in Iraq (who undoubtedly have the fullest respect of even the strongest opponents of the war) in order to criticize the war. It's just plain terrible and absolutely baffling that he said it. The media had a field day with the story and Bush suddenly didn't seem like the biggest idiot anymore after that.

PS: I am 20 too right now.
Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 08:30:24 pm by Dada
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This topic, for me at least, turned from what I love about GW, to what I can't stand. Drama queen biatches, GTFO.

Heres a link to a time article about the elections today: http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1712198,00.html

The intro to it says that if he wins all three today, he could be "close to unstoppable".

And that gave me a boner.
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My favorite description of Hilary's campaign this Summer was 'inevitable' so yea that's nice and all but it ended up meaning shit.
http://marklisanti.tumblr.com/post/126620624/i-can-totally-relate-harold-i-am-a-farmer-and-i
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The intro to it says that if he wins all three today, he could be "close to unstoppable".
I think it's too early to call him the frontrunner at this point. Obama needs to do very well today if he wants to have a good shot at eliminating Clinton's lead in Ohio and Texas.
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