(The Lost & the Damned!)Grand Theft Auto IV Thread!

(The Lost & the Damned!)Grand Theft Auto IV Thread! (Read 16415 times)

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headphonics

#81 April 26, 2008, 10:26:32 pm

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Quote from: angry black man on April 26, 2008, 10:16:28 pm

I will openly admit that this was the flaw in GTA III but Vice City and San Andreas fixed that with a semi-rigid mission structure. You're still tasked with specific goals and objectives and you have to carry them out in the planned way. In San Andreas there's a mission where you drive up next to a speeding train and avoid incoming trains while your buddy shoots all the guys off. There's a mission where you infiltrate a building, shoot everyone, then proceed to an on rails shooter chase. In another mission you move through a burning building, kill everyone, go through a boss fight, run out of the building while it's on fire, then go through a big chase scene. In another mission you torch a house then have to run inside the burning building to save someone. Vice City had missions where you went from on rail shooting to action scenes to driving sequences--

I don't need to go on.

My point is that Panda's argument certainly passes with GTAIII which was essentially "perform the same tasks ad naseaum" but Vice City and San Andreas mixed it up by encorporating the various gameplay styles in the mission structure. In GTAIII you killed people then drove away. In VC/San Andreas you stealth killed people then hopped in a plane then did an aerial bombardment then drove away while the army was after you.

How this basic set up of "do the same stuff... then do the same stuff (but a little differently)" doesn't compare with games like Mario Galaxy and BioShock is beyond me and I will call anyone who thinks otherwise a liar.

probably because since the game, as you pointed out, is so goddamn long, the minority of really cool missions doesn't make up for the majority of ones that still tended to have uninspired and repetitive structures. i actually FORCED MYSELF for the first time to play through san andreas because everyone loved it and i was sure it was a good game, and yeah, some missions deviated (more than a few, even), but most didn't.

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Marcus

#82 April 26, 2008, 10:40:41 pm

THE FAT ONE
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...what?

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this is forgivable and usually not looked upon as HIGHLY REPETITIVE in a bad way because the focus isn't on throwing your wrench to begin with. the focus is on level navigation, solving puzzles, countering/evading different enemies. there's repetition in all games, this is true, but most GOOD games temper it with a variation in the content. you get new weapons to use that there's actually a practical difference between, you encounter enemies that there are actually practical differences between, the locations are varied, and so are the puzzles (read: varied, not difficult. they actually require the use of different TOOLS IN YOUR ARSENAL or whatever).

WTF man you're stealing my entire argument and using it against me.

The focus on GTA is racing, shooting, dodging enemies, and doing missions. Yes, the difference between a pistol and a shotgun isn't that notable but you do get new vehicles on both land, air, and sea and each vehicle behaves differently. The locations are varied (big city vs. forest...), I could claim the side missions like skateboarding, delivery, and pimping are puzzles (although I did not know Ratchet and Clank had actual puzzles).

I don't even know how to defend this because you have this warped perception of the games themselves. It's pretty pointless for me to continue so I'm just going to spit out one final quote pissing contest then let you get in the final word (which more than likely includes tons of laughing and finger pointing on irc).

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because of the graphical limitations, most of the various locales in the city feel identical to one another,

Seriously? I don't see the similarities.

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the settings and environment don't really vary all that much compared to other good games.

San Andreas came out in 2004 and contained three different cities that used different building textures and light filters, had a desert area, and two wilderness areas. Considering that no other video game released in 2004 was as large as San Andreas I don't see how this counts.

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i can forgive a platformer making me PRESS A TO JUMP over and over again (is this seriously your justification for all repetition in games marcus? jesus christ i can't even believe we're having this conversation) because that's just an action; it's what you have to do to get through the content, but it's much more difficult to forgive repetition content in gta because THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE THERE TO DO.

You already pointed out to me that Ratchet and Clank was about dodging enemies, navigating environments to find secret stuff like packages and blow up dolls, and shooting different guns. I already pointed out to you that GTA is about racing cars, shooting guns, dodging cops, and exploring different areas. FFFFFFFFFFfffffffffffffffffff

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differentiate between the repetition inherent in firing a gun over and over while you go through content, and the repetition inherent in said content that's actually the reason you're playing a game

Because in GTA the action in isnt inherent in the content. Using your own argument I could blaze through Ratchet and Clank using only the wrench and I will say the game is utter trash because this is how I play it. You don't like driving cars, shooting stuff, and dodging cops so, you know, whatever.

How would you improve GTA? I'm just curious because you complain but never suggest any methods of improvement.

Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 10:42:47 pm by angry black man

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Artis Leon Ivey Jr

#83 April 26, 2008, 10:44:21 pm

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Quote from: angry black man on April 26, 2008, 10:20:51 pm

Then someone pm me when a video game comes out that let's us completely change the internal code. I will kill for a generic jRPG that let's me turn it into hack 'n slash.

there's seriously no way you are this confused.

okay marcus lets say this is a series of five mario levels.

four of the levels are almost indistinguishable. there are no new jumps or moves you make. there's no forced scroll, no really significant new interactions. basically level 1-1 of mario with slight adjustments (this time a goomba is a koopa troopa!). the fourth stage is mario typing sim.

do you seriously think this mario game is better than the one you played, with shifting locales, constantly different stages, all that shit?

GTA isn't level design, it's ENVIRONMENT design. this is why a lot of the missions feel exactly the fucking same unless it places an artificial constraint like "kill five in a driveby". I personally enjoy the environment design because I only play GTA games when I just want to drive around doing shit (coincidentally I prefer playing with full cheats) but it's not like there's this sudden incomprehensible idea that level design and content is important and some people would rather have levels than just a big open city that more or less looks the same.

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Because in GTA the action in isnt inherent in the content. Using your own argument I could blaze through Ratchet and Clank using only the wrench and I will say the game is utter trash because this is how I play it.

except using the wrench only would make the game far more difficult and as a result probably less fun, where as it's easier to take the straight forward approach in GTA and just shoot people.

it's weird that of all the shit to get worked up about this is the one you chose.

brian chemicals

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Marcus

#84 April 26, 2008, 10:53:23 pm

THE FAT ONE
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Quote

GTA isn't level design, it's ENVIRONMENT design. this is why a lot of the missions feel exactly the fucking same unless it places an artificial constraint like "kill five in a driveby". I personally enjoy the environment design because I only play GTA games when I just want to drive around doing shit (coincidentally I prefer playing with full cheats) but it's not like there's this sudden incomprehensible idea that level design and content is important and some people would rather have levels than just a big open city that more or less looks the same.

What? Did you even play San Andreas? The missions were specifically set up like levels. You navigate rickety old boats, go through building hallways, sneak around mansions, cut off trains and hijack them and shit

How is this not level design? I can understand wanting a linear level with straight paths and dodging spinning blades and stuff but how is a level in Ratchet and Clank that has you

-Killing robots
-Jumping over pits
-Jumping on moving platforms
-Finding a new gun

ANY DIFFERENT than

-Killing ballahs
-Dodging cops
-Evading traffic
-Finding a new car

This entire argument is based around one simple concept: GTA isn't repetitive because the actions are the same but the content is different.

Answer my fucking question, that's all I need. Answer the question.

How is shooting robots and dodging pitfalls in 12 different levels any different than dodging cops and shooting badguys for 12 different missions.

And don't say "all the cops are the same" or "all the badguys are the same" because the police get progressively more challenging and the badguys wield different weapons and come at you in different vehicles. How this is different than Ratchet and Clank (where the robots wield different weapons and the levels have different ways of killing you) is completely beyond me.

Answer the question.

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headphonics

#85 April 26, 2008, 10:57:40 pm

sea of vodka
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i don't even go on irc!

and on the environment setting, i think you're taking too many steps back. if you zoom waaaay out, then yeah it looks like an entire state. but, once you go in on a personal level, i found that it never really mattered much what city you were in, or what small town you were in, because all cities felt like other cities and all small towns felt like all other small towns. you couldn't go in most buildings, so it was just... here walk around this block full of similar-looking houses and buildings that are really just hollow models. you have to understand that a lot of how different towns/cities feel when you're actually WALKING THROUGH THEM is based not only on an architectural level, but also on an atmospheric and cultural one. the architecture may have varied some, but there wasn't much that made the towns FEEL different from one another. none of them had any personality. i'll give san andreas a bit of an exception because it had some cool remote locations like forests/mountains, but the URBAN locales weren't especially good. it doesn't help to zoom out and say look the buildings are in different order!!!

if you like the exploration component of gta, that's cool! i also sort of do, but a game rarely survives on that alone, and i found the dodging cops/shooting guns/racing cars stuff to be not all that well done. it was like a game that did a lot of stuff, but none of it especially good. like, a mediocre racing game combined with a mediocre action game, thrown in a sandbox where the environments totally lacked personality and life most of the time. compared to a legit action game, gta's mechanics always seemed pretty laughable. that's what i got out of it. ratchet and clank, for example, at least did what it did WELL. that's what separates it from a bad platformer!

honestly, gta 4 will probably be a lot better. it looks like they put more of a focus into making the world feel lifelike and not just a bunch of hollow-modeled houses with same-model hookers walking past them. also, they seem to have improved upon the action, and the driving mechanics (to be fair, the driving was never a huge problem with me, but i never thought of it as a RACING GAME so much as a mode of transportation) quite a bit. they've addressed my major issues with it, but for the past 3 games i've thought the game would be cool, bought it, and sort of found it to be suffering from the flaws of the previous ones, so i wouldn't be surprised if that was the case in this one.

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Artis Leon Ivey Jr

#86 April 26, 2008, 10:59:53 pm

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Quote

How is shooting robots and dodging pitfalls in 12 different levels any different than dodging cops and shooting badguys for 12 different missions.

because they are entirely different concepts.

in GTA it was frequent that you'd end up shooting cops or rival gangs as not part of any mission. so lets rewrite the question

how is shooting robots and dodging pitfalls in 12 levels (each DESIGNED to be different) remotely similar to having a series of twelve missions, some only slightly different from others (and a few that are vastly different) interspersed with sometimes long sequences that use the same structure as these missions, only tiered down some?

brian chemicals

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Artis Leon Ivey Jr

#87 April 26, 2008, 11:02:22 pm

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was there ever a mission in GTA San Andreas where the boss was anything other than a normal enemy with a bigger gun, body armor, and a crew? how many missions seriously took you to a different place than anywhere else on the map? did any of the levels really scream DESIGN to you, or did they say REALISM for the most part (which while a noble goal also makes for some ultimately boring experiences)?

I remember Crackdown having this problem much worse but at least even then the stages were more than A BUILDING; GO UP IT.

brian chemicals

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Marcus

#88 April 26, 2008, 11:07:55 pm

THE FAT ONE
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Quote

how is shooting robots and dodging pitfalls in 12 levels (each DESIGNED to be different) remotely similar to having a series of twelve missions, some only slightly different from others (and a few that are vastly different) interspersed with sometimes long sequences that use the same structure as these missions, only tiered down some?

You got me. Seriously, by rewording my argument you bring up a point I didn't think of.

Rockstar does a good job of interspersing their repetitive missions with something new. The length of the games themselves often hurts the rigid structure but they're smart enough to include stupid little things to do to break it up. I instantly get bored doing more than 3 or 4 missions in a row; that's why they have other things to do like chasing criminals and sky diving and shooting random pedestrians.

Like Steel said, this is pretty much the downfall of sandbox games in general but I enjoy playing through them little by little because by all means you can't just sit in one spot for 10 hours and enjoy it. Panda, I enjoy GTA because it's made up of so many smaller factors that it's the little things that add up to make it a good game. If you take any one part and hold it up to another game that does it better (like comparing the first person aspects of Oblivion to Doom 3) then yeah, it doesn't hold a candle.

God, I hope Harold and Kumar Escape From Guantanomo Bay is funny or else I'm coming back and writing a mean spirited article on pretentious indie comic book artists.

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did any of the levels really scream DESIGN to you, or did they say REALISM for the most part

There were areas that were specifically designed for doing crazy stunts like the big ass biking mountain and all the special stunts (or whatever they called them) like jumping a river in a 4x4 but I digress.

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Artis Leon Ivey Jr

#89 April 26, 2008, 11:09:13 pm

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DONT GO TO SEE HAROLD AND KUMAR

ITS JUST AMERICAN PIE AGAIN

seriously i went to see it and was furious that i went to see it. like i always say HEH SHITTY MOVIE but i was so upset they shit on the most promising comedy series ever.

brian chemicals

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headphonics

#90 April 26, 2008, 11:36:58 pm

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Quote from: angry black man on April 26, 2008, 11:07:55 pm

You got me. Seriously, by rewording my argument you bring up a point I didn't think of.

Rockstar does a good job of interspersing their repetitive missions with something new. The length of the games themselves often hurts the rigid structure but they're smart enough to include stupid little things to do to break it up. I instantly get bored doing more than 3 or 4 missions in a row; that's why they have other things to do like chasing criminals and sky diving and shooting random pedestrians.

Like Steel said, this is pretty much the downfall of sandbox games in general but I enjoy playing through them little by little because by all means you can't just sit in one spot for 10 hours and enjoy it. Panda, I enjoy GTA because it's made up of so many smaller factors that it's the little things that add up to make it a good game. If you take any one part and hold it up to another game that does it better (like comparing the first person aspects of Oblivion to Doom 3) then yeah, it doesn't hold a candle.

God, I hope Harold and Kumar Escape From Guantanomo Bay is funny or else I'm coming back and writing a mean spirited article on pretentious indie comic book artists.

There were areas that were specifically designed for doing crazy stunts like the big ass biking mountain and all the special stunts (or whatever they called them) like jumping a river in a 4x4 but I digress.

dude what the hell

"how is shooting robots and dodging pitfalls in 12 levels (each DESIGNED to be different) remotely similar to having a series of twelve missions, some only slightly different from others (and a few that are vastly different) interspersed with sometimes long sequences that use the same structure as these missions, only tiered down some?"

this is the same thing i said before more or less! why are you just suddenly going from being REALLY ANGRY no panda it's your fault not the game's to completely agreeing with us? i do not get you, marcus.

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Lars

#91 April 27, 2008, 12:33:16 am

Fuck off!
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so who's gettin this for the 360?

me and bm are fiddling with the idea of fitting a gw crew in liberty city and duking it out (altho cross-atlantic might not work very well)

so any euros gettin this for the 360 (and also has live)?

no plans yet but if you do maybe we could get a game goin not too long after the release

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Rye Bread

#92 April 27, 2008, 12:56:54 am

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I'll probably be picking this up for the Ps3. I prefer the PS3 controller and the system's been collecting dust lately.

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Jester

#93 April 27, 2008, 01:33:29 am

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i am getting it for 360. yay.

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jamie

#94 April 27, 2008, 02:11:52 am

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Quote from: Lars on April 27, 2008, 12:33:16 am

so who's gettin this for the 360?

me and bm are fiddling with the idea of fitting a gw crew in liberty city and duking it out (altho cross-atlantic might not work very well)

so any euros gettin this for the 360 (and also has live)?

no plans yet but if you do maybe we could get a game goin not too long after the release

i'm getting it for the 360 and i think a gw crew is a neat idea

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Marcus

#95 April 27, 2008, 02:16:15 am

THE FAT ONE
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REALLY ANGRY no panda it's your fault not the game's to completely agreeing with us? i do not get you, marcus.

i'm content thinking of ways to embarass you in mock trial.

oh i'm getting this for the 360 *insert generic one sentence reply SQUEEE*

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DONT GO TO SEE HAROLD AND KUMAR

Too late. It was a 90 minute live action south park... that wasn't funny.

LOL BUSH JOKES

Last Edit: April 27, 2008, 02:20:40 am by angry black man

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Christophomicus

#96 April 27, 2008, 02:45:18 am

?
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I'll get it for 360 probably. Then again, I'm Australian, so.

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Lars

#97 April 27, 2008, 02:50:28 am

Fuck off!
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so we got 4 euros gonna duke it out on live so far huh!?

'tis excellent

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Tau

#98 April 27, 2008, 05:06:01 am

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I'd do the GW GTA crew shit but I still gotta wait for my Playstation 3 to come back!

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Roman

#99 April 27, 2008, 06:18:42 am

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Quote from: Magical Negro on April 26, 2008, 11:09:13 pm

DONT GO TO SEE HAROLD AND KUMAR

ITS JUST AMERICAN PIE AGAIN

seriously i went to see it and was furious that i went to see it. like i always say HEH SHITTY MOVIE but i was so upset they shit on the most promising comedy series ever.

what fuck you dude it was so awesome

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PTizzle

#100 April 27, 2008, 07:17:26 am

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Quote from: Lars on April 26, 2008, 04:20:54 am

and the portable crew seems to give out a lot of tens

Jesus christ they do.

I've had a bit of a love/hate past with GTA, and I've never really been able to get into it as much as most people can. I thought GTA3 was cool for a while, Vice City was pretty boring to me (there didn't seem to be enough new) and San Andreas, while being really well done and pretty awesome fun for a while, still had the 'done it all before' feeling and some stupid, awkward missions.

That said GTA4 looks fantastic and I'm definitely going to give it a shot. I hope they've evolved the formula rather than just refining it, and I hope the fighting has been improved.

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