I'm not here to argue for or against or anything I'm just curious what your thoughts are thanks!



I just finished reading the book called Ishmael together with it is amazing! It changed my view of the world lol.

The book is pretty much about in what manner or way civilized humans are screwing up the world. Basically a man talks to a gorilla named Ishmael, who tells him the problems of the world. He says the problem started with the Agricultural Revolution (about 10,000 years ago) when man learned in what manner or way to produce his own food extensively. From then on man wanted to basically go "bigger together with bigger" kind of like going against what the gods had in mind.

Anyways it covers a number of topics. It compares civilized man with primitive man together with animals. There is an exceptionally good discussion on world hunger. The books says the only way to stop world hunger is to stop producing food. He compares it with animals. When animals have enough food, they eat. When the food population goes down, so does the animal population until it levels out...food rises, animal population rises. For us, when we increase food, the population increases. It mentions in what manner or way when you increase food to feed the starving people, their population increases so basically more people are then born into the life of poverty together with so thus we produce even more food together with it goes up together with up. Basically humans are populated...it’s like this. Humans live on every continent in the world (except Antartica contrary to expectation we’ve been there lol) together with in lots of spaces...whereas take a gorilla for example, they live in a small area of central Africa, that is it. The premise of the book is that if man stayed a hunter-gather together with not became civilized, we wouldn’t have any of the problems we face today. Animals take what they need together with leave the rest for others, animals don’t store food for long periods of time, animals don’t grow there own food, animals don’t kill for pleasure...etc all things civilized humans do

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael_(novel)


What are your thoughts?

Mostly amazement that anyone could actually believe this.

I thought this was going to be another topic about religion... seeing as how the fad these days is to call religious people primitive~

zzz dok seriously now.

humans are a lot more complex than other animals, that is why we are here today

gorillas would live all over the entire planet if it were possible for them to. every living thing tries to survive and reproduce.

you're right: when animals in the wild run out of food, they starve and die.

Animals take what they need and leave the rest for others

animals take what they need and don't give a shit about anyone else. there is no magical fucking code of empathy in the animal kindom dude. this PRIMITIVE FANTASY of yours is like some huge source of escapism for you

humans are different from animals

I thought this was going to be another topic about religion... seeing as how the fad these days is to call religious people primitive~

they are.

I don't quite understand how if food production increases, so do the number of people in poverty. Kind of an oxymoron. More people would have jobs growing/preparing food from this...

You need to take a step back from the problem in order to see it in a global perspective. At present there are five and a half billion of you here, and, though millions of you are starving, you're producing enough food to feed six billion. And because you're producing enough food for six billion, it's a biological certainty that in three or four years there will be six billion of you. By that time, however (even though millions of you will still be starving), you'll be producing enough food for six and a half billion-which means that in another three or four years there will be six and a half billion. but by that time you'll be producing enough food for seven billion (even though millions of you will still be starving), which again means that in another three or four years there will be seven billion of you. In order to halt this process, you must face the fact that increasing food production doesn't feed your hungry, it only fuels your population explosion.

Dunno how true this is.

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My thoughts on this: we don't like to let other humans starve to death. People are hungry because they are not eating when they should be, not because there is too much food creating too many people. In fact, in the most developed countires birth rates have actually started descending, showing that eventually industrialization will level off and prevent overpopulation. Its povery that makes people hungry (ie living closer to primitivism) moreso than civilization. Global food output and localized reasons for povery aren't exactly correlated.

The premise of the book is that if man stayed a hunter-gather and not became civilized, we wouldn’t have any of the problems we face today.

Right, because we would be dealing with all the other problems that civilized society already dealt with before (various diseases, et cetera).

Also, I don't understand this 'if there was less food there would be less people' theory. I mean, I understand that if people don't have food they can't eat and thus starve to death, but if even the most minimal food requirements are met and we can continue to live then there is nothing that is going to stop us from breeding more and thus having more people and thus requiring more food until it becomes absurd not to have civilized groups of people. As far as I can tell this suggests (as a solution to world hunger?) that we bounce somewhere, as a species, between starvation and the minimum amount necessary to survive as individuals so that there is no starvation or overpopulation. I mean... what? Come on, guys.

EDIT: This reminds me of my Modest Proposal assignment, where I suggested mass suicide as a means to end human suffering.

starving people wouldn't be a problem if we stopped making food because everyone that couldn't find their own food would die until only those that the land could support could live

is this what it's saying? it's real but it's horrible and makes no sense.

also now when we make more food the population doesn't increase the population gets obese

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If all mankind were to throw down their devices, gizmos, tools, and multinational corporations.  Don loincloths and strike off into the wilderness, there would be mass anarchy for several years to come.  Millions, or even billions would die as people bludgeoned each other to death with rocks and sticks for the best foraging places and hunting grounds.

Then, amidst the corpses, when the chaos died down, only the strongest of man would still be alive, and the women would be enslaved to them as reproductive objects.

Mankind would wander the Earth.  Their thought would degrade to the lowest form, and the search for food and a mate would dominate modern thinking.  Freetime would consist of picking the lice off each other's heads.

Personally, I would prefer to keep the past 10000 years of advancement so I can continue to ponder the concept of the multiverse, think on the theory of relativity, and post things on the intertron.  Besides, I would look terrible in a loincloth.

hey dok, no joke, have you been to a psychiatrist?

you seem to have no filter for this kind of stuff at all, despite being at least uh...somewhat intelligent I guess. basically you are not horribly retarded and you aren't saying you are arguing for the ideas in the book (even though you said how great it was in post 9/11 and how it changed your life here) but you seem to easily fall into extremely flimsy ideologies and politics without much thought and even if this book had some legitimacy tied to it, it's completely negated by the fact that, well, YOU'RE the one posting about it.

this idea that society is unnatural and animals know how to run the earth and all this confused primitivist nonsense...man, you should really talk to someone I think, because most people figure this shit out.

actually I'm a little pissed off that you've taken this so far that now you're preaching how people deserve to die because there isn't enough food for them.

dok, it really bugs me that you don't understand how fucking blessed you are to be able to sit there in front of your computer screen and ramble on about this shit. you don't get how lucky you are to be able to buy your expensive superfood bullshit and pick and choose what's ok for you to eat, on that horribly irrational diet of yours. living in a nice suburban home with your parents, getting your mom to drive you to your nice job, feeding those Jewish kids your green muffins, maybe going home and posting about zionism on the internet. why couldn't they have just dropped you off in the woods like good parents? someplace with loads of dandelions. you might be able to overpower bitches in the wild, think about that. you could have an entire clan of raw vegan anti-zionists, isn't that the life dok

Feeding Jewish Kids Green Muffins should be a song by Antiflag.

I dont even know what a psychiatrist would do for him but really this can't be normal!

Well, as much as it is apparent Dok presents himself with a leaning towards agreement with some of the ideas presented, to be fair he did say, "I'm not here to argue for or against or anything I'm just curious what your thoughts are," at the very start of his post and I don't think we should attack him for--let alone get emotional over--these ideas no matter how crazy they are.

Well, as much as it is apparent Dok presents himself with a leaning towards agreement with some of the ideas presented, to be fair he did say, "I'm not here to argue for or against or anything I'm just curious what your thoughts are," at the very start of his post and I don't think we should attack him for--let alone get emotional over--these ideas no matter how crazy they are.

he then followed this statement with another saying that the book had "changed his life" and in other topics has discussed how amazing it is. he may not be here to argue, but when he asks for our thoughts, he can't expect we're going to subtract his already warped worldview from it.

you can't just post basically bullshit theories time and time again and expect people aren't going to take you to task on it.