But Dredd, dogs and cats cannot mate, asians and africans can. Because they're the same species. I think your theory is flawed.

wurds

I just have to butt in and say that out of all the things Afura listed that you apparently believe, this is the only one I can sort of agree with, however you take the wrong approach to arguing for it and blow up the point a bit too much so that in the end, even though the individual sentences you're saying do make sense, what you're actually communicating is arrogant tripe, and a needlessly radical and shocking message that you're intentionally setting up in a way that people will never listen to you. Summed up in one single word, it's nothing more than flamebait. In the end the only line you said that I could side with is that 'people can be categorised into logical "races" by their physical traits, historical geographic origin and particularly genetic make up'. You need to learn to argue your points without coming off as a dickhead if you want people to listen to you, or maybe you don't want people to listen and just get a kick out of shocking people.

Dredd, I would just like to say that I have to disagree. I am currently in a place now where I live (sort of like a job training camp) is evidence that it is not based on race on how well off you would end up. In fact, I was fortunate enough to be raised in an environment where intelligence was valued over anything else. I truly believe genetics have nothing to do with how much you'll end up with and how smart you can be. My standpoint stands strong with environment, if I was raised in a bad area with no construction then perhaps I would not have been blessed enough to possess what I have now.  Each and every human has as much potential as the next, no matter how bad it might seem from their race. I'll see my way out however, I'm interested to see where this goes.

I'll leave the debating to other people, but here are some things I found interesting about the article you linked to...

- J. Phillipe Rushton, one of the authors,  is currently the head of the Pioneer Fund, which is listed as a hate group and has been critiscised numerous times for pseudoscientific racism and supporting segregation and 'back to Africa' hate speech. It was founded in the late thirties by men with strong ties to the german Nazi movement, especially Henry Laughlin, who 'proposed a research agenda to assist in the enforcement of Southern "race integrity laws" by developing techniques for identifying the "pass-for-white" person who might "successfully hide all of his black blood".' He also spoke many times about how America should have a eugenics system similar to that of the Nazis.
According to Wikipedia (which is hardly flawless, but whatever), 'The 1937 incorporation documents of the Pioneer Fund list two purposes. The first, modeled on the Nazi Lebensborn breeding program,[11] was aimed at encouraging the propagation of those "descended predominantly from white persons who settled in the original thirteen states prior to the adoption of the Constitution of the United States and/or from related stocks, or to classes of children, the majority of whom are deemed to be so descended". Its second purpose was to support academic research and the "dissemination of information, into the 'problem of heredity and eugenics'" and "the problems of race betterment".'
The Pioneer Fund's current approach is probably best seen in the form of one Richard Lynn. To quote the Southern Poverty Law center:
"Blacks are not only less intelligent than other races, Lynn asserted, but also "more psychopathic." Putting a new twist on the "science" that once supported slavery, Lynn concluded that because of their "psychopathic personalities," blacks are more aggressive than other races, less able to form long-term relationships, and more sexually promiscuous, reckless and prone to lying.
But Lynn's pal at Pioneer has identified at least one countervailing factor. "Blacks have a genetic edge," Rushton said, "when it comes to sports." "

- Rushton has also contributed many articles to the magazine American Renaissance, which has been linked many times to white supremicism. Among many other things, they believe "interracial and inter-cultural marriage is racial suicide and an unequal yoking, and that such unions go against the very community which marriage is designed to establish".
The editor of American Renaissance is one Jared Taylor, who "has often expressed great personal distaste over the presence of non-whites in Europe and America". In a speech delivered on 28 May 2005, to a British far right group, Taylor made clear his feelings on the offspring of interracial marriages when he said "I want my grandchildren to look like my grandparents. I don't want them to look like Anwar Sadat or Fu Manchu or Whoopi Goldberg."

- Rushton's scientific technique has been blasted on many occasions. One complaint is that he approaches data with preset conclusions in mind, and 'shows' that his ideas are right by asking other people to prove them wrong. This technique is most often used by fundamentalists and anti-evolutionists, among others of that ilk. He's been repeatedly accused by people like renowned geneticist Stephen Jay Gould of allowing personal bias to colour his data.

- Rushton's data itself has been called into question due to his habit of 'aggregation', or giving all data equal weight regardless of their quality or whether they exhibit a strong bias. He's claimed to use over '100 years of research', despite the fact that intelligence tests as far as the late fifties have been repeatedly shown to be extremely biased and inaccurate. This tendancy of assuming that all research is equally valid and correct is at best naive and at worst deliberately misleading.

- Did I mention that Rushton's book, as well as one by his partner Arthur R. Jensen, are both available for free on a pro-eugenics website? http://neoeugenics.home.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/

- The American Psychological Association has officially disowned the genetic-intelligence hypothesis, stating "There is not much direct evidence on this point, but what little there is fails to support the genetic hypothesis".

- Speaking of Arthur Jensen, he's also recieved more than one million dollars in funding from the Pioneer Fund. While apparantly not as neck-deep in deranged bullshit as his pal Rushton, he's still pro-eugenics and his research has also been heavily featured in, you guessed it, American Renaissance magazine.

So, yeah. I know that being funded by white-supremicist, neo-nazi eugenicists doesn't necessarily mean that your research on how black people are inferior to whites is tainted (well, it probably does, but whatever). Just something to think about, anyway!

EDIT: Hahahahaha, just reread that article and they're seriously trying to verify CHARLES SPEARMAN. I mean, come on. Spearman was a eugenics-advocating elitist fuck who deliberately altered all the results he got by classifying anything remotely contradictory as 'faulty', in such a shitty and obious way that he was the laughing stock of the scientific world for decades. And these guys are actually taking his "research" seriously? Check out this article for a brief history of Spearman and his influence on these guys: http://www.hirhome.com/rr/rrchap7.htm
Rushton and Jensen are hacks, from a long line of hacks, and that paper has as much scientific value as an episode of Superfriends. Steel, I'm sorry for getting in the way of the debate, but I didn't think this stuff would come up otherwise and I wanted people to know that this guy's views are as scientifically worthless as they are morally indefensible.

Dredd, I would just like to say that I have to disagree. I am currently in a place now where I live (sort of like a job training camp) is evidence that it is

No matter how much you disagree, personal experience isn't worth anything in a debate, is not evidence of anything, and is a pretty bad argument in general.

actually it's best if like catamites and omeg and people like that do this; today's mother's day and I have to go do shit and then tomorrow like I said I'm leaving for a whole week!

so yeah you guys go at it.

However I would argue that studies also show north east asians are in fact smarter again, making whites not the most intelligent race and therefore not the "master race" talked about by nazis and most traditional white supremist organisations.

how much anime do you watch

no seriously

So by definition racism is the belief that your race is superior to all others genetically.  My belief is just that people of different races have different mentalities and intelligences and that this is not entirely due to environment but partly due to their genetics.  Therefore i'm not racist.  Some may say this is the same thing as studies show whites are more intelligent than blacks.  However I would argue that studies also show north east asians are in fact smarter again, making whites not the most intelligent race and therefore not the "master race" talked about by nazis and most traditional white supremist organisations.

this is fantastically stupid, the least reason of which is by definition racism is

a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

USUALLY doesn't mean THE definition sooo.

secondly this incredibly asinine idea that if you believe in genetic superiority in races but you aren't a racist is pretty fucking laughable dude. WHOA DONT WORRY; WHITES AREN'T AT THE TOP *whips a nigger*. it's a bit like sucking dick and saying it isn't necessarily gay; the chances of this are so slim as to be nonexistent.

The fact that different races have different mentalities and intelligences is a widely accepted fact and is proven by every study ever done on intelligence difference between races.  The part that is controversial, however, is the cause of this difference.  The behaviouralists believe that this is entirely due to their environment and that the reason african americans end up with lower paying jobs and do worse in school in the united states is due to "the white man keeping them down".  This view is not based on any evidence, however, and is only the most widely held view because it is what people want to believe.  As can be seen in this journal (http://taxa.epi.umn.edu/~mbmiller/journals/pppl/200504/2/235-2.html), there is an overwhelming amount of research that proves there is an indisputable correlation between IQ and race.  I'm not going to go into detail about each experiment because it'd take too much time; if you're interested read the article.

a widely accepted fact? no. no study that's legitimate actually believes there are "different intelligences" since that's not even a thing and most studies acknowledge the fact that intelligence is near impossible to measure. there is a scientific concensus that blacks and hispanics tend to underperform on IQ tests though.

thecatamites destroyed your shitty shitty link but christ it's a fact, you idiot. even if you ignore the incredible social strain that tends to force blacks into poorer conditions, the ignorance in the public school systems, the poor educational standards of the government, study after study after study has shown that a black person with equal qualifications to a white person was far less likely to be hired. in fact the only race where this deviated was with asians, where a slight increase occurred at middle management, only to have a severe decline after it. there is a de facto racist system in employment and education in this country, you're a fucking idiot if you don't know that.

ps Jensen wrote in the 1970s, a period of some racial fear and confusion, and a mere twenty years after the civil rights movement. kind of weird though, when even the notoriously libertarian Cato Institute admits the gap has reduced by a third in the last thirty years and from social factors. if it's genetic...how did those nigras get so smart...

A common argument to this point is that IQ and race are both abstract social constructions.  You may try and discredit IQ tests and say they only prove you're good at taking IQ tests but there is also an indisputable correlation between your IQ and academic success and between IQ and average income.  So although its hard to define "intelligence" or a way to unquestionably test it, we can say that these tests prove your chance of academic success and earning potential.  The idea that race is also an abstract social construction is based on the idea that people have more of a continuous variation in their genes and traits rather than clear cut categories.  This is true now partly due to mixing of races.  However, I would still argue people can be categorised into logical "races" by their physical traits, historical geographic origin and particularly genetic make up.  These races are rational and are not abstract due to the fact that aside from half casts everyone falls into an indisputable category.  You can't say an african is an asian anymore than you can say a cat is a dog.  It's not abstract its a fact that can be seen by their physical characteristics and indisuptable proved by their DNA.  Half casts now don't fall into one of these categories and may belong to two or more categories meaning they have genes made up from all these races.

So I conclude that these logical 'races' have been proven to have different IQs and they are an indication of their academic and financial success.

this is so fucking stupid! how idiotic are you? go back to high school biology you idiot and the teacher will pound you into the dirt. your logical races are the abstract social construction you stupid fuck. go back to high school stat too because they'd tell you that correlation is not causation. higher IQ and academic success or income doesn't mean shit if the test is fucking useless. what if it was a test on the lightness of skin? would you say because white folk hire white folk for their best jobs or white teachers ignore black students and white officials give black students the worst schools it's a fair measure? you idiot.

WHOA THIS FAULTY TEST INDICATES SUCCESS IT CAN'T BE BECAUSE THE TEST IS ADMITTEDLY BIASED AND SHITTY AND EVERYONE ELSE IS TOO gah how are you this fucking stupid.

This view is very unpopular in modern society.  Today's media pushes the idea that anything said by a white person that is negative towards another race is automatically "racist" and therefore the person saying it must be very stupid, as evil as hitler and deserves to die a painful death.  We are all for freedom of speech but if it's racist then that person must be silence, right?

REVEREND WRIGHT YOU STUPID FUCK.

I would also like to add that this conclusion doesn't mean that anyone is any less of a person based on their race.  I don't hate people because on their race, I have friends who are other races, I even used to go out with an asian chick.  A lot of people, particularly of minorities proven to have a lower intelligence really don't like this view.  It is logically very hard for them to take and most often they will make up some mental justification for it being wrong or try to find some bullshit irrelevant hole in the argument.  These people can continue to lie to themselves and say "it's not true" but if they really open their eyes they will see it is.

you are a racist, one of the primary arguments racists use is "I have a lot of friends in other races and used to date one", and you're a filthy fucking human being who will, thank god, eventually be skewered on his own idiot petard.

ps I'm way fucking smarter than you (at least I know to check my highly outdated sources) and I'm a minority funny how that works???

I've tried to answer the question as best I can without being arrogant or offending anyone but this is impossible because no matter how I word my argument the argument itself is offensive.  Nearly everyone reading this thread probably thinks im a completely arrogant dickhead and to be honest I don't blame you.  Western society views people with views like mine as 'racist' and automatically associate them with being a stupid, arrogant redneck, probably just like you did the moment you read the subject of this thread.

It's hard for a person to be open minded to a view they've been told to hate their whole life.  Due to this I don't think this 'debate' is really going to be that constructive.  Even if I give an infallible argument supporting my point of view most of you won't accept it and will leave this thread with the same view you had from the beginning, not to mention feeling a bit angrier.

no it's because you're fighting for your racially insensitive views and accusing everyone else of being closeminded while deliberately ignoring all of human history, you idiot cracker, that's why we all know you're just an angry little white boy foaming about JEWS AND NIGGERS and in reality if a black guy approached you you'd throw your wallet on the ground and run away screaming, you armchair intellectual fuck.

eat dicks forever, your friend,

Magical Negro.

hey look all I did was call you, or your family and friends, naturally stupider than me, the white guy. look if you were east asian I would agree to go to the ghetto but you're not, so honestly, just accept you're just naturally always going to be stupider than me. no, look, here's a study from 1970, I don't need a body of evidence from the late 90s.

just...just leave me alone guys. I'm just expressing viewpoints here. just trying to tell you you're a genetic idiot.

So by definition racism is the belief that your race is superior to all others genetically.  My belief is just that people of different races have different mentalities and intelligences and that this is not entirely due to environment but partly due to their genetics.  Therefore i'm not racist.  

That's interesting, since http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:Racism&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title gives a good few definitions including:
- Prejudice or discrimination based on an individual's race
- The belief that one 'racial group' is inferior to another
- Racism is prejudice or discrimination based on the belief that race is the primary factor determining human traits and abilities. Racism includes the belief that genetic or inherited differences produce the inherent superiority or inferiority of one race over another. ...
So, yeah, you actually are a racist by every definition except your own carefull-worded one.

Some may say this is the same thing as studies show whites are more intelligent than blacks.  However I would argue that studies also show north east asians are in fact smarter again, making whites not the most intelligent race and therefore not the "master race" talked about by nazis and most traditional white supremist organisations

Wow. Studies. I'm impressed. Tell me, when you say 'studies', are you referring to the one you gave earlier by Rushton and Jensen? Because I've already pointed out that that's a massive pile of crap. Maybe there are some non-retarded ones you could point me to? And just in case you didn't see my other post, this link http://www.hirhome.com/rr/rrchap7.htm is a pretty good run through of exactly why that study is a total load. I just love how you're so quick to dissociate yourself from nazis, though, since it's more than can be said for the authors of that piece of shit pamphlet you linked to.

The fact that different races have different mentalities and intelligences is a widely accepted fact and is proven by every study ever done on intelligence difference between races.

Yeah, except for the ones that weren't completely made up by racist genocide-advocating assholes. I'm not even going to get into how the type of 'intelligence' that's being tested is the one that only ever came into being through Charles Spearman and his, er, imaginative way with research data.

The part that is controversial, however, is the cause of this difference.  The behaviouralists believe that this is entirely due to their environment and that the reason african americans end up with lower paying jobs and do worse in school in the united states is due to "the white man keeping them down".  This view is not based on any evidence, however, and is only the most widely held view because it is what people want to believe.

Ah, so black kids in Harlem don't do badly because they're the product of a massively underfunded school system, it's because they're black. And we know this because of the indisputably correct research you've provided us with. Right, that clears that up then. I guess it makes sense though, since they're too busy spending their welfare money on gold teeth and watermelons to learn anything.

As can be seen in this journal (http://taxa.epi.umn.edu/~mbmiller/journals/pppl/200504/2/235-2.html), there is an overwhelming amount of research that proves there is an indisputable correlation between IQ and race.  I'm not going to go into detail about each experiment because it'd take too much time; if you're interested read the article.

'Gripping' - Washington Post
'Epic' - Observer
'A tour-de-force of comic fantasy' - New York Times

A common argument to this point is that IQ and race are both abstract social constructions.  You may try and discredit IQ tests and say they only prove you're good at taking IQ tests but there is also an indisputable correlation between your IQ and academic success and between IQ and average income.  So although its hard to define "intelligence" or a way to unquestionably test it, we can say that these tests prove your chance of academic success and earning potential.  The idea that race is also an abstract social construction is based on the idea that people have more of a continuous variation in their genes and traits rather than clear cut categories.  This is true now partly due to mixing of races.  However, I would still argue people can be categorised into logical "races" by their physical traits, historical geographic origin and particularly genetic make up.  These races are rational and are not abstract due to the fact that aside from half casts everyone falls into an indisputable category.  You can't say an african is an asian anymore than you can say a cat is a dog.  It's not abstract its a fact that can be seen by their physical characteristics and indisuptable proved by their DNA.  Half casts now don't fall into one of these categories and may belong to two or more categories meaning they have genes made up from all these races

Well, as far as I can see, the main point all of that rambling bullshit hinges on is that IQ = success. And "A 2002 study further examined the impact of non-IQ factors on income and concluded that an offspring's inherited wealth, race, and schooling are more important as factors in determining income than IQ". Jesus, would you please even google some of this shit before posting? I'm not even enjoying this anymore, it's like pushing a crippled kid down a flight of stairs. Except the crippled kid is a racist fuck. Actually, scratch that, I'm okay with this now.

So I conclude that these logical 'races' have been proven to have different IQs and they are an indication of their academic and financial success.

It's interesting how your definition of the word 'proved' is a lot more lenient than everyone elses. I think a more suitable term would be 'claimed', or to be more accurate 'claimed by retarded closet nazis'.

This view is very unpopular in modern society.

Wow, jesus, I wonder why? Maybe because it's wrong and has been responsible for some of the worst crimes against humanity ever seen?

Today's media pushes the idea that anything said by a white person that is negative towards another race is automatically "racist" and therefore the person saying it must be very stupid, as evil as hitler and deserves to die a painful death.  We are all for freedom of speech but if it's racist then that person must be silence, right?

Stop watching Fox News. Seriously.

I would also like to add that this conclusion doesn't mean that anyone is any less of a person based on their race.  I don't hate people because on their race, I have friends who are other races, I even used to go out with an asian chick.  A lot of people, particularly of minorities proven to have a lower intelligence really don't like this view.  It is logically very hard for them to take and most often they will make up some mental justification for it being wrong or try to find some bullshit irrelevant hole in the argument.  These people can continue to lie to themselves and say "it's not true" but if they really open their eyes they will see it is.

See, up until this point here I thought you were just dumb. Let me put it like this: You're a sad, worthless, nasty little fuck who gets some sort of pathetic little ego boost out of being offensive, who jacks off to the thought of being some kind of FREETHINKING REBEL when really you're just a massive douche who uses flimsy pseudoscience to justify your own asinine beliefs. And keep telling yourself that you're scientifically proven to be right and that you have TONS of black friends, because if you didn't then you might suddenly realise you're a joke, an embarrassment, and a monumentally sad excuse for a human being.