Jone hey afura's roommate! (Read 2166 times)

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ahaha did you just try to link genetic disposition and MUTATIONS hahaha
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There are people who still haven't seen Harlequin fetus?  Click the link and get it over with. 

That said, they're right.  4Dsheep was talking about the genetic makeup between different populations of humans, and he/she is right, there is very little difference between two humans of any population.  In fact, almost all behavioral differences between populations are determined by culture and upbringing.  If you need a source, this is information that can be found in any modern biology or human psychology book.   

The birth defect of Harlequin Fetus has nothing to do with this.
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genetics is only "tiny" on the grandscale?, but what about the varaibles that genetics controls 100%?
Like the length of my arms, in boxing everyone knows the person with the farther reach will dominate.
What about my hieght, everyone knows that the taller I am the more advanatage I have in a game of basketball. And the shorter I am the better I am at ice skating.
I mean, I suppose those don't seem like big "differences" but to me these differences riddle everything we do.

I mean, Is is racist to say that asains are usualy shorter than black people?
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4DSheep since you are educated in terms of biology I would love for you to scientificially disprove my flatmate.
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We get it Xeno|Soft. You're black, and you want people to acknowledge your physical prowess over non blackies.
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genetics is only "tiny" on the grandscale?, but what about the varaibles that genetics controls 100%?
Like the length of my arms, in boxing everyone knows the person with the farther reach will dominate.
What about my hieght, everyone knows that the taller I am the more advanatage I have in a game of basketball. And the shorter I am the better I am at ice skating.
I mean, I suppose those don't seem like big "differences" but to me these differences riddle everything we do.

I mean, Is is racist to say that asains are usualy shorter than black people?

unlike a lot of people I won't say there is no genetic component because you know, of course there is. however it's less because Asians are predisposed to be tall and more that taller Asians as a whole don't breed. also let's not forget we are taking a very broad stance at Asians but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here.

the question is whether genetics is destiny, and it clearly isn't but it can affect things, and then the subquestion is whether intelligence can be genetically determined or if it really has an effect. it can be, BUT only in abnormalities such as Down's Syndrome. for instance, we still have no idea how to MAKE GENIUSES, those kids that can learn calc at the age of five. intelligence can be predicted with those outliers like Down's or whatever, but to state that a race will have a predisposition towards intelligence or against it is ludicrous and doesn't understand the fundamentals of biology, genetics, or evolution.

basically aside from some more or less arbitrary physical characteristics (including a predisposition to, say, be slightly taller or to have more melanin) genetics has no line in human race, and the biological definition of race does not fit the construct we've used.

this kind of subtlety is beyond Afura's roommate though!
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Well I ain't biology expert but biologists today generally use a term called "clines" rather than races, because clines do not necessarily conform the old notions of races, etc.

Anyway, even if we spics and negroes are in average  worse at calc or whatever than the mighty aryan man, there is nothing "political" about it. its like making a study of fat men's mathematical prowess, and then concluding that fat people tend to do worse in math, and therefore making a political statement about it. Same about tall people, people with curly hair, etc. Only bigots make political statements about it. 
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That Harlequin Fetus thing actually didn't really SHOCK or DISGUST me that much... it's just sad but not really that gut-wrenching.

Nothing as bad as kids in sandbox that's for damn sure.

EDIT: Oh my sorry we're back on topic disregard this post  :fogetshh:
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Here's an interesting and mildly terrifying site I found on some of the dehumanising effects of the whole 'genetic destiny' idea: http://www.sntp.net/eugenics/genetics_1.htm .
Highlights include:

"With fear of crime replacing communism as America's number one threat, academics who believe that genes dictate destiny have commanded the kind of government attention and support once reserved for rocket scientists. Their views on saving America from the hereditarily defective are increasingly influencing federal research priorities and public policy."

"In 1992, for example, the National Academy of Sciences and the National Research Council issued a 400 page report titled "Understanding and Preventing Violence." Funded in part by the Centers for Disease Control, the U.S. Justice Department, and the National Science Foundation, the report called for more attention to "biological and genetic factors in violent crime." In particular it called for more research on "new pharmaceuticals that reduce violent behavior"."

"Jensen attacked Head Start programs, claiming the problem with black children is that they have an average IQ of only 85 and that no amount of social engineering would improve their performance. Jensen urged "eugenic foresight" as the only solution."

"Blacks are at one extreme, Rushton claims, because they produce large numbers of offspring but offer them little care [...] Despite Rushton’s controversial race theories, he has been embraced by the scientific mainstream, having been elected a fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and the American, British, and Canadian Psychological Associations."

""Blacks... are reproducing more rapidly than whites. I have seen it estimated that 25% of the population will be black and less than 50% white by the middle of the next century. This contingency was not foreseen by the founding fathers, and it is an open question whether liberal democracy can be sustained by a population whose mean intelligence and self-restraint fall sufficiently below Caucasoid norms." Dr. Levin’s solution is to slow black population growth by ending public assistance."

"Time, U.S. News and World Report, and the New York Times, among other publications, and various TV programs have reported Bouchard’s conclusions that shyness, political conservatism, dedication to hard work, orderliness, intimacy, extroversion, conformity, and a host of other social traits are largely heritable. the scientific data and methods of analysis upon which his conclusions are based have to date never been released for objective scrutiny.
Nevertheless, the prestigious journal Science invited Bouchard to contribute a key article in its June 17, 1994 edition, which included an editorial reporting that a "new consensus" had been reached among behavioral scientists in the nature vs. nurture debate: genes dominate."

And some more on the 'Violence Initiative' from the second quote. I believe it's been shut down since, but it's still interesting to read: http://www.plp.org/pamphlets/violinit.html . Key line:

""[...] to try to find out who might be more likely to go on to becoming labeled eventually as delinquent or criminal...identifying at-risk kids at a very early age before they have become criminalized." These children (some 100,000 or more of them) and their families would then be subjected to psychiatric intervention -- mainly drug therapies."

And finally,

"What is especially dangerous about Rushton is his influence on mainstream public policy. His racist research to portray Blacks as genetically inferior in mental capacity has been used as a weapon to justify denying employment and equal education and economic status against Blacks." - http://www.onepeoplesproject.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=130&Itemid=29

So, yeah, just in case anyone was thinking that believing in genetic destiny doesn't automatically make you an evil fuck...

EDIT: Also, in case anyone thought all that stuff about 'genes dominate' proved that it was a valid argument:
“…although Rushton's writings and public speeches instill the vision of Blacks as small-brained, oversexed criminals who multiply at a fast rate and are afflicted with mental disease, his views are neither based on a bona fide scientific review of literature nor on contemporary scientific methodology. His dogma of bioevolutionary inferiority of Negroids is not supported by empirical evidence.” - http://foreigndispatches.typepad.com/dispatches/2004/09/portrait_of_a_r.html

"Some of Rushton's references to scientific literature with respects to racial differences in sexual characteristics turned out to be references to a nonscientific semipornographic book and to an article in the Penthouse Forum." - Zack Cernovsky, journal of black studies

"Steven Cronshaw and colleagues wrote in a paper for the International Journal of Selection and Assessment in 2006 that psychologists should critically examine the science employed in Rushton's race-realist research. Through a re-analysis of the validity criteria for test bias using data reported in the Rushton et al. paper they assert that the testing methods were in fact biased against Black Africans. They disagree with other aspects of Rushton's methodology such as the use of non-equivalent groups in test samples."

"Rushton is the most dubious of Bakalár’s sources; he has been criticized repeatedly for misrepresenting data and selectively citing and misinterpreting sources. This is significant in terms of Bakalár’s book, which relies heavily on Rushton’s ideas and research, most notably his study, "The IQ of Gypsies in Central Europe." Interestingly, neither Rushton nor Bakalár carried out any primary research or fieldwork, but based their scientific claims on the papers of other researchers." - http://www.geocities.com/sailerfraud/articles/rushton.html

"It is in a way personal and political propaganda. There is no basis to his scientific research." - the excellently named Hermann Helmuth

"Because Rushton was consistently rejected by the scientific community for his faulty empirical data and unscientific research methods, his sole source to fund his racist research program was the fascist group, the Pioneer Fund."

“Rushton's research has been widely criticized, however, and other studies have contradicted many of his claims.” - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-selection

"Rushton's theory is based on an attempt to extend the r/K selection theory to humans. He explains the patterns in the table by arguing that while all humans display extremely K-selected behavior, the races vary in the degree to which they exhibit that behavior. He argues that Negroids use a strategy more toward an r-selected strategy (produce more offspring, but provide less care for them) while Mongoloids use the K strategy most (produce fewer offspring but provide more care for them), with Caucasoids exhibiting intermediate tendencies in this area. He argues that Caucasoids evolved more toward a K-selected breeding strategy than Negroids because of the harsher and colder weather encountered in Europe, while the same held true to a greater extent for Mongoloids.
Rushton's work is prominent in race and intelligence research, but his r/K selection theory is the subject of much more criticism and accusations than found even in this controversial field. For example, in a 1996 review of the book, anthropologist C. Loring Brace wrote that "Race, Evolution, and Behavior is an amalgamation of bad biology and inexcusable anthropology. It is not science but advocacy, and advocacy of 'racialism'" (Brace 1996). Brace argues that Rushton assumes the existence of three biological races with no evidence except Rushton's speculation as to what an extraterrestrial visitor to Earth would think." - http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/J_Philippe_Rushton_-_Works/id/1519481

"Rushton sources, such as semi-pornographic books and the Penthouse magazine, have been dismissed by other researchers, or have been criticized as extremely biased and inadequate reviews of the literature, or simply false [5]. There have also been many other criticisms of the theory [6][7][8][9][10][11][12]. Actual recent data show that blacks are not more psychopathic [13], nor do they differ in from whites when testing for the big five personality traits [14], differences in sex hormones between whites and East Asians are best explained by environmental differences [15], and the fundamental prediction of the theory that blacks have a higher frequency of twins is incorrect [16]." - http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/J_Philippe_Rushton_-_Works/id/1519481

Possibly overkill, but I just can't get enough of Rushton and his wacky psychopathic 'science'...
Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 02:08:22 am by thecatamites
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man that first site has a SAY NO TO PSYCHIATRY image thats kind of dumb.
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man that first site has a SAY NO TO PSYCHIATRY image thats kind of dumb.

Shit, I didn't see that... Goddamn hippies, now they're just a paranoid unreliable source... Still, a lot of the stuff they said in the article holds up, so I think I'm good.
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Ok he's about to post in the next hour. Prepare yourselves!
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I'm so incredibly excited...

I get sick of people who cite a single obscure piece of research, and ignore the other mounds of contradicting evidence.
sorrow is the key that gets our tears out of eye jail.
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hahaha
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There's a reason that organisms that reproduce sexually are generally superior to those which are asexual. Sexual beings are able to combine genetic traits, and evolution (which, by the sound of him, Afura's flatmate probably doesn't believe in, but lets not go there) slowly weeds out the bad and promotes the good. The greater the range of possible partners means the more selection of genetic traits to be honed. Diversity therefore leads to an overall improvement of the species.

So those who claim that inter-racial breeding is 'polluting' a race are encouraging the denigration of their own race by limiting the scope for the natural mingling of genes which got us to to where we are at now anyway. If people like that were around when we were still all dragging our knuckles on the cave-floor, the wheel would never have been invented. But if you want to stagnate and have your kids be retarded hicks while the rest of us have genetically advanced offspring, be my guest...
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see: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2001-10/uoc--sva101701.php
for evidence...
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1. A lot of you seem to be getting off topic.  This debate is about whether intelligence and behaviour are determined entirely by environment, or alternatively that it is a combination of environment and genetics.  As a consequence of the latter races which have been seperated for tens of thousands of years obviously having greater genetic difference also have greater difference in intelligence.  Noone from the beginning ever suggested that behaviour or intelligence are determined entirely by genes and not at all by environment.

2. The difference in IQ between races is accepted by everyone who has taken 5 minutes out of their life to look into it.  Heres just one site with data on it http://psycnet.apa.org/?fa=main.doiLanding&fuseaction=showUIDAbstract&uid=2001-01339-002 but if you dont think its enough or want more evidence just search "iq difference races" or something similar in any search engine.  You'll find hundreds of web pages telling you exactly the same thing.
heres another one http://www.vdare.com/Sailer/060423_lynn.htm

3.  Some are saying the actual difference in genotype between races is very low.  Well if you look at the percentage as a whole this would seem to be true (99.9% of genes are common to humans) but if you look at it relative to other things it doesn't seem like such a big gap.  For example that humans also share 99.4% of their genes with chimps.  Ouch that blows that theory out of the water.  If any other species has the same genetic variation between them as humans do between races they're defined as sub-species. http://www.goodrumj.com/RFaqHTML.html this link gives some comparisons in genetic variation between humans and other mammals.

4. It seems that not everyone is happy with the credibility of the article i linked to originally.  The fact that the authors are both doctors of psychology and belong to numerous reputable institutions including american, canadian and british psychological associations means nothing apparently when your views go against what certain people want to believe in.  Some have argued that their references are all either outdated or to themselves.  Have any of you even read the article? There are over 230 lines of references mostly from reputable journals.  Not to mention that referencing ur own past work is done by practically all scientists, it saves them having to prove the same data every time they write a paper; any of you who actually study science would know this.  And his references all being outdated is also rubbish.  Theres nothing wrong with using references from decades before as long as the methods used to obtain the data are still current and repeatable. Fuck for all of you people who are worried about just ignore everything with refernces from before 1990 and uv still got more proof than you'll know what to do with.

The american psychological association is a large respectable organisation who screens any work they publish, pretty much the same as every major scientific journal.  There's no way they'd publish an article which was just "unfounded white supremist views".

Anyway let's ignore that article and look at some other research discussing exactly the same thing from unbiased perspectives.
http://www.globalpolitician.com/24460-iq-race
http://www.slate.com/id/2178122/entry/2178123/

Everyone clings to the egalitarian view that all races are equal in every way.  Hey guys, grow a fucking brain. You really think races that are separated geographically for tens of thousands of years and differ in genes and physical traits incredibly some how ended up with exactly the same brains.  Wow that would be pretty amazing huh.  The view that race has not effect whatsoever on intelligence was made up based on NOT ONE THREAD OF RESEARCH but rather on the fact that it’s what people wanted to believe.  Now that research is proving this entirely wrong people people don’t want to believe it.  They don’t quote evidence to oppose it... because there is none.  Only views that it’s a racist thing to say.  Well cry me a fucking river!

So while these "equally intelligent" races developed on their different continents some, such as caucasians, developed agriculture, government and philosophy.  They developed steel works and complicated manufacturing, built ships, learnt science and built cities.  Meanwhile others lived in mudhuts and chased zebras around with spears.  Come on people you've got to be kidding me.  Ofcourse we're different.  Before they met white people sub-saharan africans were only a very small step up from monkeys.

Liberal retarded viewpoint: “Although every race has evolved independently and are entirely different biologically they all have exactly the same brains.  Although this has no evidence supporting it and a lot disproving it, this is irrelevant, because we don‘t want to believe it”

It’s like going back a few hundred years and trying to tell people the earth is round.
“That can’t be right”
“You’re a crazy extremist”

Well guess what all you fucking hippies, it’s a fact, races are different.

Fucking live with it.
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oh asians are entirely different biologically from caucasians huh.  GOOD TO KNOW.  man the best part about you is that you're so set in your stupid unsubstantiated pseudopscience claims that no one in the community who isn't a laughing stock respects or adheres to, that you actually act self-righteous and condescending towards the people telling you you're an idiot.  they.... they don't see the truth......... they been brainwashed by their sissy liberal ideals...
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Oh and btw I know half of you won't bother linking to those sites but heres some useful evidence based on research conducted by medical institutions:

 Studies on over 700 participants show that individuals with larger brain volumes have higher IQ scores. About two dozen studies using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) to measure the volume of the human brain have found an overall correlation with IQ of greater than.40 (Rushton & Ankney, 1996; P. A. Vernon, Wickett, Bazana, & Stelmack, 2000). The correlation of.40 using MRI is much higher than the.20 correlation found in earlier research using simple head size measures, although the.20 correlation is also reliable and significant. Rushton and Ankney (1996) reviewed 32 studies correlating measures of external head size with IQ scores or with measures of educational and occupational achievement, and they found a mean r =.20 for people of all ages, both sexes, and various ethnic backgrounds, including African Americans.

 The most likely reason why larger brains are, on average, more intelligent than smaller brains is that they contain more neurons and synapses, which make them more efficient. Haier et al. (1995) tested the brain efficiency hypothesis by using MRI to measure brain volume and glucose metabolic rate to measure glucose uptake (an indicator of energy use). They found a correlation of −.58 between glucose metabolic rate and IQ, suggesting that more intelligent individuals have more efficient brains because they use less energy in performing a given cognitive task. Several other studies supporting the brain-size/efficiency model were reviewed in Gignac, Vernon, and Wickett (2003). In any individual, however, energy use increases with the increasing complexity of the cognitive task.

 Estimates from twin studies indicate that genes contribute from 50% to 90% of the variance to both cranial capacities based on external head size measures and to brain volume measured by MRI (Bartley, Jones, & Weinberger, 1997; Pennington et al., 2000; Posthuma et al., 2002; Rushton & Osborne, 1995; Thompson et al., 2001). Common genetic effects mediate from 50% to 100% of the brain-size/IQ correlation (Pennington et al., 2000; Posthuma et al., 2002). Studies have also shown that correlations between brain size and IQ also hold true within families as well as between families (Gignac et al., 2003; Jensen, 1994; Jensen & Johnson, 1994), which also implies shared genetic effects. However, one study that examined only sisters failed to find the within-family relation (Schoenemann, Budinger, Sarich, & Wang, 2000). Families with larger brains overall tend to have higher IQs and, within a family, the siblings with the larger brains tend to have higher IQ scores. The within-family finding is of special interest because it controls for most of the sources of variance that distinguish families, such as social class, styles of child rearing, and general nutrition, that differ between families.

 Race differences in average brain size are observable at birth. A study by Rushton (1997) analyzed recorded head circumference measurements and IQ scores from 50,000 children in the Collaborative Perinatal Project followed from birth to age 7 (Broman, Nichols, Shaugnessy, & Kennedy, 1987). Using the head circumference measures to calculate cranial capacity at birth, 4 months, 1 year, and 7 years, at each of these ages, the Asian American children averaged larger cranial volumes than did the White children, who averaged larger cranial volumes than did the Black children. Within each race, cranial capacity correlated with IQ scores. By age 7, the Asian American children averaged an IQ of 110; the White children, 102; and the Black children 90. Because the Asian American children were the shortest in stature and the lightest in weight while the Black children were the tallest in stature and the heaviest in weight, these average race differences in brain-size/IQ relations were not due to body size.
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I'm so incredibly excited...

I get sick of people who cite a single obscure piece of research, and ignore the other mounds of contradicting evidence.

Show me some contradicting evidence fuckwit