Topic: hey afura's roommate! (Read 2166 times)

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Yeh thats a really good point I did address right in my first post though where i talked about the argument that IQ is an abstract social construction.  Pretty much its that you're right that intelligence is hard to define but there is proven correlation between high iq and high success academically, financially and socially.  So although we can not say that such tests mean someone is more "intelligent" we can say that they're likely to score higher academically, financially and socially etc.  Magical negro made the response to this that correlation doesn't imply causation which I havn't responded to yet.  The answer is that I'm not saying it is causation.  If you like we can say the correlation with iq also means correlation with success as these two are correlated together.  You could say that success is actually due to some third external factor that in fact is also correlated with IQ but either way it's the same result.
none of these have anything to do with intelligence.  modern academia is notoriously misguided and not especially indicative of intelligence, so it doesn't mean anything at all if there's a correlation between iq score and academics, aside from maybe that most iq tests are setup in a way that people who are inclined to do well on them are also inclined to do well in academics because of the similar structure.  note that, again, even this minor correlation doesn't relate to intellect whatsoever.  what's more, it correlates to financial and social success because it correlates to academic success, and academic success in turn correlates to financial success which in turn correlates to social standing.  at no point in time does intelligence ever enter into any of this.
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Ok, but this was addressed before; even if you put the kid in another family, you can't remove the colour of their skin, and they'll always be discriminated against for that reason. The only way you could really test this was if society was completely unbiased, and that's just not possible
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yeah he's right buddy.  you act like adoption cases or comparisons between races living in identical economic situations somehow completely eliminate all of the cultural discriminations and stigmas attached to race.  they don't at all, and that's still very much a factor.
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So... you admit that IQ tests are shaky grounds, and that you need to correlate them with real life. Ok. But financial, academic and social (And what does that mean? they go down well at cocktail parties, or what?) success, which you are so often hold up as evidence of lesser intelligence is ignoring the fact that people are constantly discriminated against simply because of their skin colour. It's not that they're dumb, and so can't be CEOs- its that the other members of the board are all white and would prefer them to be janitors...

Well that's the whole point of this argument.  I'm not saying that a negative environment and racism doesn't have a negative effect on a person's development because obviously it does.  What i'm saying is that this is not the only factor and that genes also play a role in a races average intelligence.
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okay but you're substantiating this claim with links to research done by well known bigots with readily apparent agendas and claims of experiments where the assumption is that adoption completely eliminates all components of discrimination within the tests, which simply isn't the case.

you talk about us denying the "facts" because they don't confirm what we ourselves want to believe, and then remain seemingly oblivious to the notion that someone might distort the facts so they DO confirm what they believe, whether it's incorrect or not.  you can't be so suspicious of others and then not extend the same suspicion to the sources you're citing-- especially when your sources are the people most likely to distort or fabricate empirical findings to support their agendas.
Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 10:53:37 am by headphonics
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Ok, but this was addressed before; even if you put the kid in another family, you can't remove the colour of their skin, and they'll always be discriminated against for that reason. The only way you could really test this was if society was completely unbiased, and that's just not possible

That's true in a society like the US where blacks etc are a minority but other studies have been done in other countries that still support the heritabily view.  For example the living and education standards in india and asia have increased dramatically over the last 50 years but the average IQ's still havn't changed dramatically.  The difference in IQ between indians and chinese with the similar wealth is huge.

Another point is that while blacks and hispanics have been discriminated against so have asians.  Going back to when asian first arrived in the US they were in very much the same position as blacks being at the bottom of the social ladder.  Despite this and similar discrimination they did well academically, financially and also in IQ tests.

BTW by social success I just meant a higher standing in society.  This is normally implied by intelligence and wealth but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
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Anyway its 11pm in NZ and iv got to be up at 4 30 so better leave this for tonight.  Might come back and answer the million responses there will probably be in a couple of days.
  • aye ess dee eff el cay jay ache
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pretty sure the chinese moved over to find gold and build railroads, they weren't captured and shipped over
I USE Q'S INSTEQD OF Q'S
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the reason asians do better here is because only the smartest asians can afford to come here, this is pretty obvious guy.

also man I don't even need to call you stupid everyone else is doing a good job of it.

also also what do you have against Indians, who tend to score higher on IQ tests than whites. as your genetic superior I order you to start suckin my d.
brian chemicals
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I didn't say their means or reasons for going to the US were the same I'm just saying that at that point of time their situations were very similar.
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Asians were never submitted to the slave trade en masse: their culture was held higher in regard due to its similarities to western culture, ie. having a written language, ornamental material possessions. Thus they were in general treated with far more respect
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It’s interesting how you keep bringing up the adoption study, especially since the people who conducted it actually stated that it was evidence for a wholly environmental theory of intelligence. The people who claim it shows a genetic influence are, yep, Jensen and Lynn again. Maybe it’s me, but for such an obviously popular and correct theory, it’s strange how so many articles are written by just the same few bigots over and over…

Anyway, some more quotes I think you'll find interesting:

"Race is a social construction, not a biological construct, and studies currently indicating alleged genetic bases of racial differences in  intelligence fail to make their point even for these social defined groups." - http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/amp60146.pdf

"The academic and occupational successes of Asian Americans have caused many people to presume Asian Americans have higher-than-average IQs. However, most studies show no difference between the average IQ of Asian Americans and that of the general population. Some studies of Asians in Asia have found a 3 to 7 point IQ difference between Asians and whites, in favor of Asians, but other studies have found no significant differences."

"It is interesting to note, however, that the gap between the whites and the blacks have reduced by one third in the last 30 years and many believe that the average IQ of the two populations will gradually converge, resulting in minimal difference between them – due to the Flynn effect, which states that IQ scores from all nations are slowly increasing over time due to improved environmental conditions [...] Many critics of the genetic view simply argue that the studies which show racial differences are flawed or inconclusive. The fact that the gap between black and whites is decreasing seems to support their views. In fact, they offer evidence to show that African-Americans have excelled in almost every enriched environment they have been placed in (and which they were previously barred from) and that this distinction has been achieved in only a few decades, with improved but still not equal opportunity [...] Studies have shown that a student’s ethnicity did make a difference in the teacher’s decisions for referrals for gifted and talented educational programmes." - http://www.aboutintelligence.co.uk/the-controversy-race-intelligence.html

"It is important to note that neither IQ, future academic performance, nor life success can be predicted from an individual's race or ethnicity." - http://social.jrank.org/pages/529/Racial-Differences-Standardized-Tests-Race.html

"These differences are substantial, there are much larger differences between people within each group than between the means of the groups. This large variability within groups means that a person’s racial or ethnic identification cannot be used to infer his or her intelligence. "

http://harmonyzone.org
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^^^^you doin a good job here btw.

hey Dredd I found this book I think it might help you!



man what is with the insistence of people ignoring like the entirety of a scientific body in order to fit a few studies into their point of view.

ps when ice cream sales go up so do wife beatings correlation is not causation.
brian chemicals
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Quote
Ok guys you can try to discredit them all you like.  Hey their views are hated by a lot of people so I'm sure you'll have no problem finding quotes from people "discrediting" their research.  Hey probably any black guy with a doctorate will be happy to add his name to the list.  But is there any evidence to support your point of view? any evidence at all? trying to disprove my point of view doesn't do this.  Can anyone name an iq test that blacks have actually scored equal to whites?  How do you explain that blacks whites and hispanics all adopted into upper class white families with the same average income and given the same learning opportunities still have the same order of intelligence from the age of 3.  Shit that might be a hard one.

Incidentally, this is a textbook example of 'shifting the burden of proof', where instead of proving he's right he asks other people to prove him wrong: http://ksuweb.kennesaw.edu/~shagin/logfal-distract-shiftburden.htm
http://harmonyzone.org
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the best part I think is when he just gave up and started saying ANY BLACK CUNT.

it pretty much took his whole "hey I'm a reasonable guy I have other race friends" and shoved it up his ass.

basically the best part is when you're so full of indoctrinated racism and hate, it eventually comes out and everyone I've known like this gets stuck in a soulless middle management position and ends up marrying a fat chick that they knocked up and they eventually turn into hollow shells of people, that's Dredd in a decade or so.
brian chemicals
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they dont have fat chicks in new zealand do they
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they have to keep warm somehow in the cold arctic winters.
brian chemicals
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does anyone else find it kind of weird that afura and his roommate are sitting in their respective rooms posting to each other
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i think it's pretty funny they are fuming at each other from a few feet away

COME OUT OF YOUR ROOM AND SAY THAT

NO YOU!
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that doesn't seem weird to me at all