Topic: Observed major evolution occurs for the first time (Read 8406 times)

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Evidence of beginning of human existence shows it to be around 100k-200k years ago.

So basically, humans lived in caves, suffered horrible diseases, experienced agonizing deaths, and had very low life expectancy for that amount of time until one day god decides to show up with Jesus Christ on the cross.

Actually, god created the universe 13.7 billion years ago, created the earth 4.5 billion years ago, life around 3.7 billion years ago, and THEN he decided 2k years ago to send his son out into the middle of the dessert to preach to thousands of barely literate people.

edit:
oops you beat me to it marmot
Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 09:20:49 pm by Wil
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Jesus christ. Have you ever even studied Egyptian or even GREEK mythology? What the hell do you think Ra and Poseidon were for?

I never said they weren't respectively "the god of sun" and "the god of sea", if you somehow interpreted my posts as something like that well then here's an easy version:

A- People know things exist, but don't care about them (why would they?).
B- People are gullible.
C- At least one of them has schizophrenia and hears voices inside his head.
D- Because that person from C doesn't understand why they're there, he/she assumes it's from some immaterial beign.
E- Because of B, people from A will just do whatever that guy from C says because he's just too charismatic.
F- Everything above + the snowball effect

And then you have a religion, a cult, nazism or whatever!
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jesus christ climbtree you are either dumb as hell or a troll

life started 4 billions years ago, there was plenty of time for humans to evolve out of prokaryotic bacterias,

human beings appeared around 200k years ago but they already lacked a functional appendix so humans didnt loose the appendix because they already didnt have it.

and evolution doesnt works with isolated traits and if you think that you should crack open a biology book. evolution works by random mutations and how those mutations help certain organisms to survive better and reproduce. so multiple mutations may be selected simultaneously and therefore its not like one thing develops at a time i.e. "heh how much time you need to develop a penis and then an eye....."


Quote
i guess a lot of them would overlapor something.

[...]i'm a bit iffy with dinosaurs as well though so maybe i'm just a loon

shut up i already covered both your points and i already said i didn't care about the appendix, only that 30,000 generations is a really long time. notice how the only new trait in the bacteria was citrate metabolization though (30,000 generations for that, maybe only another 10k for a flagellum or something).

furthermore it's mostly flintstones fans and fundamentalists that believe dinosaurs and humans lived together. and the tin lids (but they were flintstones fans).



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shut up i already covered both your points and i already said i didn't care about the appendix, only that 30,000 generations is a really long time. notice how the only new trait in the bacteria was citrate metabolization though (30,000 generations for that, maybe only another 10k for a flagellum or something).

furthermore it's mostly flintstones fans and fundamentalists that believe dinosaurs and humans lived together. and the tin lids (but they were flintstones fans).


Still your post doesn't make sense. evolution happens through natural selection and if the enviroment doesn't change evolution will be really slow. you cannot compare bacteria in a controlled enviroment to normal habitats that generally tend to change rapidly.
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the article wasn't talking about natural selection causing the bacteria to evolve but simply chance anyway, so environmental pressures are moot.

likewise i don't think the humanoid population would have been big enough to support rapid changes anyway
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So basically, humans lived in caves, suffered horrible diseases, experienced agonizing deaths, and had very low life expectancy for that amount of time until one day god decides to show up with Jesus Christ on the cross.
This is not true.  The tribal peoples in the world who still live the way they had for thousands of years (hunter-gathers) don't suffer horrible diseases, agonizing deaths and low life expectancy.  Unless that was a joke.
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Well some of them do, look at those people in africa
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This is not true.  The tribal peoples in the world who still live the way they had for thousands of years (hunter-gathers) don't suffer horrible diseases, agonizing deaths and low life expectancy.  Unless that was a joke.

who are you talking about here? they might not have the same diseases but i'm pretty sure most of the elderly in south american tribes just look 90 and die at 40
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the article wasn't talking about natural selection causing the bacteria to evolve but simply chance anyway, so environmental pressures are moot.

likewise i don't think the humanoid population would have been big enough to support rapid changes anyway

enviromental rpessures have everything to with evolution dude. it is precisely because the cianide processing bacterias are able to survive and adapt to the enviroment that they breed.
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Sorry that I'm replying to this so late, but the fact that you are doing an experiment and EXPECTING specific results shows that you're a poor scientist. The very POINT of an experiment is to get the result, if you already have a result in your head, why are you doing the experiment?

My physics teacher told us this each and every day of class. We are never to enter an experiment with some preformed idea of how it is going to go, because then when we get wildly different results we get confused and do it over and over again, trying to get the 'right' results, which wastes our time and gets us a bad grade for handing in a late lab.
Well,  the reason we perform experiments in University is to develope experimental skills rather than to discover the value of a certain constant. The reason why we expect certain results is because we need to learn to identify sources of systematic errors, and the reason we repeat an experiment a lot if we don't get the expected result, is so that we minimize the random error so that we can make sure that the source of error is mainly systematic.
I agree with what your teacher says though, and I never ever ignore any result I get however ridiculous it is compared to what someone else has writen on a book.

That's your problem, your instrument is inaccurate and your sample size is too small, which makes your first statement false
My sample size was certainly not too small for any experiment. I made sure that the precision was high by repeating the measurements loads of times. lol. And how can you tell that my error came from the inaccuracy of my instruments? Sorry mate but that's a ridiculous statement... it could have been anything.

But hey! this has nothing to do with the topic anymore so I'll ask something that I have been wondering (if someone minds answering):
Does thought and knowledge through time evolve, just like living beings do? or does it develope differently? because if it is the latter, then the future of humans would not depend on the common evolution (or would it?), meaning that the theories of evolution would at best tell us how we have come to be like what we are, but that's about it.... wouldn't it?
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Well some of them do, look at those people in africa
It depends what people.  Not the Mbuti of the African rainforest.  Lots of people like the Bushmen, for example got fucked when settlers came and shit.
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This is not true.  The tribal peoples in the world who still live the way they had for thousands of years (hunter-gathers) don't suffer horrible diseases, agonizing deaths and low life expectancy.  Unless that was a joke.
Near the beginning of our species, yes. There is a difference between TRIBAL PEOPLES of the past few thousand years and people who lived during the infancy of our species. Life expectancy had to be around 20-30 years and infant mortality very high, during a time when nothing was known about micro-organisms. Humans lived in terror of volcanoes, hurricanes, and earthquakes, and probably died from them as well. You are right, there is evidence that the life expectancy of some tribes is about 50 which isn't obscenely low, but I am not talking about what in the context of EVOLUTIONARY TIME is only a few seconds.
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But hey! this has nothing to do with the topic anymore so I'll ask something that I have been wondering (if someone minds answering):
Does thought and knowledge through time evolve, just like living beings do? or does it develope differently? because if it is the latter, then the future of humans would not depend on the common evolution (or would it?), meaning that the theories of evolution would at best tell us how we have come to be like what we are, but that's about it.... wouldn't it?

LOL well using your methods you somehow found it to be a number, but other people, real scientists, nobel prize winners, using their own equipment (which I can only expect to be better than yours since they have unlimited funding and what not), found another number. And do you think they repeated their experiments just 4 times? No, they did it like 5 million times until they were sure their numbers were right. And then you find another number... what does that tell you? Hint: you did something wrong. But I guess you're on the right track since even real scientists have to deal with murphy's law.

It depends what people.  Not the Mbuti of the African rainforest.  Lots of people like the Bushmen, for example got fucked when settlers came and shit.

Yes it does, but even those who aren't too bad are infested with lice, tapeworms and several other parasites that aren't that common in the world of ipods and mac donalds and xbox 360

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Of course and now people don't die of volcanoes, earthquakes and tsunamis, because evolution made us immune to them

Good god, you are completely missing my point.
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Does this experiment lead to conclusive evidence that the bacteria will become an entirely new species? As far as I can tell it gained a new trait, which is essentially micro evolution (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)? I believe that creationists biggest qualm is that man came from apes or something similar to that because it disputes the fact that man was created in God's image. What are some examples of intermediate fossil examples of preman?
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Does this experiment lead to conclusive evidence that the bacteria will become an entirely new species? As far as I can tell it gained a new trait, which is essentially micro evolution (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)? I believe that creationists biggest qualm is that man came from apes or something similar to that because it disputes the fact that man was created in God's image. What are some examples of intermediate fossil examples of preman?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_evolution_fossils , near the bottom.
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I believe that creationists biggest qualm is that man came from apes or something similar to that
We have common ancestors, who ever said we came from apes? Many, many people have this mistaken mind set. Though, I do get your point. It's pretty tough to discard evolution, considering all the evidence that backs it up.
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Does this experiment lead to conclusive evidence that the bacteria will become an entirely new species?


Depends. Technically a new species is formed if it is isolated from other groups and evolves independently so I guess it COULD be considered a new species since it evolved independently... but for a new species to be formed, it has to go through at least one of five prezygotic isolations:

1 - Ecological Isolation: Two population live in different ecological conditions (eg mountain and lowland gorillas)
2 - Temporal Isolation: Different mating seasons (eg flowers release spores at different times)
3 - Behavioral Isolation: Difference in mating rituals which prevents two populations from mating (eg a city bird and a country bird are technically different species because their songs have developed to be different over time...that is, the country bird has long drawn out mating calls while the city bird needs short abrupt, high-pitched songs to compete with city life. Apparently they've done tests and these two birds, although they thought were the same, won't breed anymore).
4 - Mechanical Isolation: When organisms aren't "physically" compatible
5 - Gametic Isolation: proteins/enzymes in sperm aren't compatible with proteins/enzymes in egg (eg marine organisms spray sperm all over the place but only fertilize eggs that are compatible).

None of which seem to apply to the bacteria at the moment. (There's a little biology lesson for you all.)
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*clap clap clap*
We have common ancestors, who ever said we came from apes? Many, many people have this mistaken mind set. Though, I do get your point. It's pretty tough to discard evolution, considering all the evidence that backs it up.
Modern apes and humans share ancestors that are ape-like, creationists however think that evolution is all about MONKEYS BECOMING MEN OUT OF THE BLUE which leads to hilarious assumptions like "Monkeys evolved to humans in millions of years? BUT MONKEYS DON'T LIVE FOR MILLIONS OF YEARS DUUUH"

also that last one was from a page with creationist hatespeech, does anyone have the link? I think it was posted in irc a couple of months ago

EDIT: this is not it but read it nonetheless http://www.wikiality.com/The_Myth_of_Evolution
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None of which seem to apply to the bacteria at the moment. (There's a little biology lesson for you all.)
Uh, yeah. That would be obvious, considering bacteria do not reproduce sexually*. I mean, the same can be said of fossils. How do you know fossil A is a different species from fossil B? You simply can't get them to prove they're different species anymore when they're dead. In these cases, it's back to the old 'do these two look the same to you' method. In this case specifically, the new emerged trait is radically different from anything the strain has come up with previously. Sizing this up, it's like a group of koalas starting to eat something other than eucalyptus leaves. When koalas that eat slightly different eucalyptus leaves are different species, what does this mean for the bacteria when he starts to metabolise something the rest of his strain can't?

Problem with evolution religion hasn't: explaining evolution requires time, effort, and a remotely intelligent audience. Explaining religion requires someone to say "god said it and therefore so and so is true" and a gullible audience.

*Or rather, there is no such thing as a common gene pool in asexual organisms, because they do not pool genes. When a population does have a common gene pool, genes 'mingle' and each set won't be very different from another of the same population. When a part of the original population gets isolated, however, it gets harder for genes to mix and differences will accrue until the two populations couldn't reproduce even if they wanted to (and thus being distinct species). There is, however, something resembling a gene pool in bacteria, since some can transduce (their or plasmid) DNA to another, and some can also incorporate loose DNA from dead bacteria. You could speak of different species of bacteria when (some of) these things become impossible between two types of bacteria.
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