Topic: Tabletop Sundays [tabletop] (Read 1242 times)

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Hail fellow dungeoneers, Chief Neckbeard here with the first edition of Tabletop.  Some of you may be asking yourselves "well why didn't he post it on Tuesday and make it Tabletop Tuesdays?"  To which my reply is "Because alliteration is dumb *snort*"  Every other Sunday I will present you with a choice of the finest (and not so finest) in tabletop pen n paper role playing games.

Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition


(the new logo reminds me of when Wizards changed the MtG logo back in 8th edition or whatever)

When I first gazed at a preview to the new edition of the most popular role playing game in the world, my first thought was "Is this DnD or Dungeons of Dragoncraft?"

Sure enough, the chief theme of 4th ed. is undoubtedly "Roll playing, not role playing."   Flipping through the massive Players Handbook which condenses much of the information once featured in the 3.X Dungeon Master's Guide one can find a plethora of features that influence combat and combat alone.  Every paragraph is bereft with, and I exaggerate only slightly, illusions of grandeur that revolve around the singular idea of "reaching the end."  One of the major editions, Tiers, "fixes" the confusion a newcomer might have with the vast amount of options presented in earlier editions but it's also the games biggest boon.


(it's funny to note that in an interview one of the components of the game they wanted to eliminate forever is the thought of dwarven women having beards.  this was discussed... IN LENGTH.)

As it is, every character is essentially the same.  Every ability culminates from the same pool and every feat either enhances a combat ability or gives a slight bonus to skills.  Characters are now considered "heroes" being adept at everything as bonuses are granted based on levels.  A level 10 wizard is just as experienced at fighting as a 10th level fighter but fighters gain skills and feats that improve their proficiency with specific weapons making every character a powerhouse regardless of class.  Balance issues are even more complicated as every combat encounter is balanced based on a 5 character setup of specific "roles" meaning smaller gaming groups have to be saturated with NPC's and larger gaming groups require more work from the DM to challenge the party.


The game literally runs like a console RPG as monsters are no longer based on the same rules that builds characters.  While there are currently rules that allow you to play as monster races it's impossible to, say, capture and convert an enemy into an ally and expect him to put up a decent fight.  There's no rules for monster creation meaning a DM either has to modify a current creature or just use weird combination to challenge the player (fighting harpies in an inn because there are no specific Ogres matching the parties level hooray!).  Speaking of the larger focus on combat, social skills and sensory skills (like search, sense motive, bluff, diplomacy, etc.) have been stuffed into a generic skill respectively degrading their importance.  It doesn't make much sense that a fighter, a class that focuses on hitting things, would be equally excellent at negotiating with royalty as he is with detecting magic items and discerning their properties. 


(hey look, i'm a wizard with cool energy swirls even though my only power is shocking hands and fireball oooooh)

Magic as well has been nerfed to no end allowing Wizards, Warlocks, and Clerics a generic array of ranged missile spells making them more like magical ballistas than specialty casters. Rituals take up the reigns as generic spells but they're a small category of generic everyday spells like raise dead, magic circle and gentle repose.  Gone are a wizards ability to play with matter and a clerics miracles of extraplanar shelter and food creation.  All the flavor of summoning noxious clouds, controlling the wind, and molding the environment are gone and replaced by a glorified archer with magic missiles and holy bolts vice arrows.


(Dungeons and Dragons, now offering virtual pens and paper)

Wizards main proponent is DnD Insider, the online mode where players can play... well, online.  It's a novel idea; how many times I've had to cancel a game because I couldn't gather all of my buddies together is uncountable but it saps all the magic away from the game itself.  Tabletop gaming is more of a social event than an actual GAMING event and it's a lot of fun getting together with your buddies, sipping on beer, cracking jokes, and rolling dice at the same table.  Online chatting is just as sociable, but the atmosphere isn't there unless you enjoy going "lol shit sux" at giving an exasperated sigh because one of your players types at the blazing speed of 10 words per hour.

There is some positive behind 4th edition truly.  Combat is fast and simple.  There's very little confusion as far as the rules are concerned and, when 5 players are present, the game is incredibly balanced.  Every class has SOMETHING useful to contribute to combat which is both a positive aspect and a boon on the gameplay itself.  It's a shame greater focus and encouragement isn't placed on the roleplaying factor because fighting stuff has been nearly perfected.

All in all, if you want options, options, and more options pick up 3.5 and it's multitude of errata and flavor books.  At the moment, 4E presents the clearest and most concise form of Dungeons and Dragons ever but without the added flavor presented in 3.5, the game is boring for anything other than recreating your favorite roguelike.
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Man, is the Geas spell not in the game at all then? If it isn't, I'm gonna be pissed. Also Wish, please tell me Wish is there??
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I've gotten the rule book pdfs, and this looks far too much like a tabletop port of a console multiplayer rpg than a tabletop game.
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Man, is the Geas spell not in the game at all then? If it isn't, I'm gonna be pissed. Also Wish, please tell me Wish is there??

No wish, no geas, just a bunch of everyday generic spells like speak with dead.  I loved Tenser's Transformation, Polymorph Other (you are now A SQUIRREL), and Finger of Death but yeah, there's nothing like that in 4E.  Spellcasters are fucking boring.

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I've gotten the rule book pdfs, and this looks far too much like a tabletop port of a console multiplayer rpg than a tabletop game.

It really is.  It's basically Diablo 2 the tabletop RPG (which is ironic because there was a d20 Diablo 2 game).
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one can find a plethora of features that influence combat and combat alone

This annoys me a bit too :(
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No wish, no geas, just a bunch of everyday generic spells like speak with dead.  I loved Tenser's Transformation, Polymorph Other (you are now A SQUIRREL), and Finger of Death but yeah, there's nothing like that in 4E.  Spellcasters are fucking boring.

Welp, I called D&D 4E sucking long before it came out and this just solidified it.
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D&D is just becoming more and more generic as the years go by. Apparently it aspires to be EVERYTHING ELSE except D&D.

This is why you make up your own rules and campaigns. It is a lot of work, but it's more rewarding in the end.
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THis version doesn't seem general, it seems to be mostly focused on the Dungeon aspect, unlike 3.5

I've only just learnt of the 5-man party thing, but that would screw up the games I play a fair bit, 'cause the parties I usually playing in have 2-3 people.

I'm sticking with 3.5 mostly 'cause I have 3 characters ready to try out on it, a sorcerer, a druid and my favourite class of all, a bard! They may be weak, but one is gonna be the main leader of my party in Icewind Dale (Both 1 and 2) once I've got all six trained up to level 5 form the starter quests, seeing as that bloody goblin party in IWD1 likes to one-hit a level 2 bard...

That and I can't be bothered to fork out another £60 to buy the 3 books for the Core Rules again, especially if it wasn't likely that I would use it.
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New DnD certainly sounds like shit. Not that it wasn't shit before it just seems even more so now.

I've never been much of a DnD player, disliking most of the features and its focus on heroic dungeon crawling. This seems even more a step in that direction. But I can also see why this step happened. It won't make regular core roleplayers happy but it may very well bring in a lot of new blood, or at least new money. Roleplaying has always been a hobby that requires quite a bit of investement from the player (or at least the GM), requiring time and planning and all that other stuff. This seems very much a roleplaying game for the busy generation. With generic things and quick plug'n'play playstyle. It's not for the deep roleplayer.

But it is for those that have the attention span of a rabbit. It's also more of a buy-play-once-get-the-other-new-stuff-instead. Basically the perfect way to make moneys.
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I am a semi-d&d fan. I absolutely love the roleplaying and the character development, as well as the whole social aspect of it, but at the same time I am NOTORIOUS for not being able to ever get good rolls when I need to and I almost always die within half an hour every session. I always had more fun in the roleplay than the fighting and crawling, and as Shinan said, it's just taking away all the roleplay and making it entirely about Diablodungeon crawling. 3.5 was probably the best tabletop incarnation of dungeons and dragons, and after both reading this and seeing all the videos when they were talking about 4th edition, I have almost completely lost interest in d&d.

I wouldn't be surprised if WotC turns out to be an EA subsidiary.
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Yeah, I've never played tabletop d&d but I have played Baldur's Gate, BG2, and Neverwinter Nights. I know a few things about the rules and such, so I decided to take a look at 4th edition, and I'm pretty shocked. They really watered things down.

They got rid of all the awesome alignments. Lawful good, neutral good, neutral, neutral evil, and chaotic evil? Screw that shit, I want to be chaotic neutral, lawful evil, or chaotic good.

Reading about the classes just made it worse. Let's see, there are no more monks, druids, or bards, to name a few of the classes they got rid of. Prestige classes/epic levels are also replaced with some mandatory PARGOON PATHS or something.

Also they fucked up a lot of the background info on some of the monsters, from what I can see. Like the driders. Apparently, according to the monster handbook, they're Drow who went through some SUPER AWESOME TEST to become driders? If I recall correctly, driders and Drow loathe each other, because driders are those who were outcast from Drow society. There's a whole popular series of books about a Drow that 4th edition is screwing over.

In terms of role playing, 4th edition seems to have really screwed you over. It looks like there'll no such thing as a Kobold who wants to be a good guy, because they're all pretty mindless bloodthirsty monsters. They've really made everything more black and white. What I liked about older editions (at least from the games) is that you really had a potential to create some really interesting characters and stories.

but i don't really know much about DnD i guess. computer does all the dice rolling and calculations for me hey
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Yeah, the set as a whole seems like a slap in the face to pretty much anyone that actually played D&D as a ROLEPLAYING game, considering almost any campaign I was in was usually like 90% roleplaying 10% combat, if that.
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For 4th edition the missing classes ARE going to be put in supplements for the game, but with the monsters I have to agree. I really enjoyed rolling up a random kobold sorcerer, who was out cast, and he would have been fun to play (Crummy lightvision, but in a cave, perfect vision)

And I know some of the rules by heart (Mainly the simple dice rolls and some spell damages) I still learn most things about the older editions from IWD (THAC0 especially, which I worked out as a pain in the ass to calculate, but simple once you can)
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OK so Marcus I was reminded of this...

How do they treat Dragons?

Is it 2.0 variant, where they are a challenge even if they are a baby (read: way it should be)...

Or 3.0 variant where every adult dragon in the whole fucking planar multiverse is killed by 6 level 10's all the time?

I hate the 3.0 variant so bad I have a special 2.0-esque variant JUST for 3.0 campaigns. They are so stupid in 3.0.

HURR I HAVE SPENT HUNDREDS OF YEARS ALIVE BUT GET FOILED BY 6 ABOVE AVERAGE ADVENTURERS.

It's even stupid in the 3.5 based MMO DDO. Like holy fucking shit, the first module involves a dragon. That is trying to steal an artifact that will basically destroy the world.

And it's beaten by like 6 level 10's.

whaaaat?

If 6 level 10's could defeat it why the fuck couldn't all the guards and shit kill it?

So stupid.

If you say 2.0 style I will hate it a lot less.
Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 02:51:46 pm by HL
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If 6 level 10's could defeat it why the fuck couldn't all the guards and shit kill it?

Well challenge rating varies wildly above 5th level.  A 1st level fighter and a 3rd level fighter is a huuuuuuuuge difference in terms of powers but a 10th level fighter and a 12th level fighter have a smaller ratio in terms of what both characters can do.  3.0 really stressed things like damage reduction whereas 2.0 stressed magic resistance (magic resistance 75% for nearly every dragon fuuuuuuck thaaaat).

But yeah, 4.0 treats every monster as cannon fodder.  Literally.  They even have a subtype called "minion" which has the same stats as a normal monster of its level but they only have 1 hp.  The most powerful monster in the standard rules is Orcus, the level 30 something demon prince of darkness but 3.5 epic level monsters could wipe the floor with him.  Even the Tarrasque, the so called "Godzilla of DnD" is a pretty big puss because every sword wielding hero in the 4.0 universe is practically GOD.

I can't stress enough the difference between PCs and NPCs in 4.0.  Early editions made the difference between heroes and NPCs pretty clear but 4.0 you're not even in the same building.  A 1st level wizard in 4.0 could literally take out an entire village because he has an infinite casting of magic missile it's horrendous.
Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 04:22:37 am by Marcus
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all i have to say is wow.

that's pretty sad.

elminster from 2.0 would destroy every 4.0 npc at the same time. sux.
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oh and don't get me started on healing bursts.  a pc can heal something like a quarter of their hp by taking a move action.  it's limited a set number of times per day (which is like 3+ constitution mod or something) but the fact that PC's can SELF HEAL in a matter of seconds is disgusting.
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It sounds like D&D just got really easy.  I guess a bunch of angry people wrote letters to WotC saying, "My DM is cheating!  He keeps winning!  I stepped on a trigger and it fatally wounded me!  I pressed the red button that said, 'Do not press' and it killed me.  Will you make it so it's like a much better game -- World of Warcraft?  That's my favorite game.  Thanks!!!" or something to that extent.

Traditional D&D is the way to go.  I'll take my books to the grave with me.

--Terin
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I guess I'll stick with 2.0 or 3.0, or even 3.5 with buffed up dragons.
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2.0 is gr8 for simplicity, but 3.5 can be really good (with buffed up dragons) if everyone knows everything (the combat rules, etc.)