If you keep pressin me I will be though. You can get angry and yell about this stuff to ignorant people.

You are being incredibly ignorant about trans people but there's not really anything else I can say to you about it.  I mean you flat out deny their gender identity which is like the FOUNDATION of being trans.  Saying "you can do what you want but I don't agree with it" is the same as telling a gay person "you can do what you want in your bedroom but I don't like it!!!"  Sorry dude.

oh jeez what is this. Mope you are saying some pretty crazy stuff!! i haven't read all of the recent posts in this topic (something about james bond???) but just from your last posts, i can definitely see a lot distaste for transgender people (which one might rightfully call transphobia). you stated yourself that you "don't personally know any trans"-- which, by the way, is an offensive way of saying that, since trans is an adjective, not a noun that describes the entirety of a person's being-- and i think that's what the problem here is. you're acknowledging that you don't know anything about transgender stuff, and then going on to talk about that stuff anyway. it's pure ignorance. even the way you speak of trans people is very "other-ing", seeming to refer to the spectrum of people as some sort of homogenous group. you don't seem to even know what a trans person is, since you seem to think that drag queens or crossdressers are trans...? actually, i'm not even sure WHAT you think...

personal story: i'm a transgender person. specifically, i identify as genderqueer... and even more specifically, as pangender-- but let's not get too bogged down in terminology here, when it seems like you don't yet understand even the term "transgender". when i was a kid i was always a "tomboy", to the point where i liked to tell people i actually was a boy, because that was how i felt, and expressing myself outwardly as a boy made me feel comfortable and good about myself. but then i got made fun of a lot in school for wearing boy clothes and acting so masculine, so i feminized myself over several years, and i realized that i felt good and comfortable that way, too. in my early teen years i began to get involved in the LGBT community locally and online, and i came to accept myself over the course of several years as pansexual and genderqueer, and those are identities i have now been totally comfortable with for quite a while. i feel like both a man and a woman and everything in between! though physically, i feel like i should have been born male... for example, ever since i started developing breasts, they have felt weird and wrong. i'm sure i would be much happier with my body if i had a more male-contoured chest. "dysphoria" is the term for the unpleasant feeling that arises from a conflict in what my body is and what it feels like it SHOULD be. so yeah... i'm a trans person. it's just one aspect of who i am. so, you HAVE come in contact with trans people-- though i guess you didn't know it, because they (we) didn't fit your stereotypical expectations.

my girlfriend is also trans. she was born male, but never felt comfortable in her own body. in the past couple years, she's come to identify as a transgender woman. she's gotten laser hair removal on her face, and she'll be starting hormones in about a month. she's not "out" to everyone in her life yet, and to many people she comes across currently, she is perceived as a "normal dude" (albeit with cute purple hair and sailor moon t-shirts). someday she wants to get sex reassignment surgery and be able to pass as female in everyday life. but regardless of what her genitals are or what hormones are active in her body or how she dresses, she is a woman just as much as any other. unfortunately, she deals with dysphoria and transmisogyny every single day... she hates her body, she hates being referred to as "he", she hates not being able to comfortably use the women's restrooms in public places, etc... being a trans woman is tough.

anyway Mope here is what it comes down to: you could spend a long time arguing about The Truth Behind Transsexuality... there's plenty of stuff to be said about hormones and chromosomes and in-utero development. you can try to argue scientifically about why transgender is or isn't real-- though, you will find that the biological and psychological communities are hugely supportive of the transgender condition. but what REALLY matters is this: transgender people are human beings just like you. if you don't acknowledge their feelings, their struggles, their identities, then regardless of whatever ~scientific evidence~ you feel supports your behavior, you are showing a huge lack of empathy for REAL PEOPLE. why would it bother you so much to simply indulge in using others' preferred pronouns, if you know it makes them happy? why not support people's decisions to wear what they feel comfortable in? why not try to understand what someone means when they say they are "neutrois" or "agender" or "genderqueer", rather than assuming that their labels-- parts of their IDENTITIES-- are nonsense? transgender issues are SOCIAL issues, not just biological. you have the power to help a lot of people simply by acknowledging the legitimacy of who and what they say they are. and if you're going to let some sort of pseudoscientific hangups stop you from being a genuine and sympathetic human being, then you will always be a problem in the lives of trans people like me and my girlfriend.

i can definitely see a lot distaste for transgender people (which one might rightfully call transphobia)

i don't have a lot to add to that post since i'm not a transperson myself but i'm just gonna paraphrase someone i saw on twitter today - that this is simply transphobia by definition

I'm sure mkk or someone could clarify a lot better than me but you seem to have a very simplistic or skewed or outdated or whatever idea of gender.  Your whole post frames trans people as WANTING to be a certain gender.  It's not like that.  They are that gender.  It's not about just humoring trans people by calling them the pronouns they want (that's bare minimum decency-wise).  I don't just call trans women "she" because it's what they want, it's because they literally are women.  I guess the best way to clear this up is for you to tell me exactly what you believe makes someone a woman or a man and discuss it from there.

yeah, warped, your post seems very well-intentioned, but your ideas of gender are pretty offensive... let me make this clear: gender identity is an individual's internal sense of whether they are a man or a woman or genderqueer (or whatever). sex is the biological status of an organism being male or female or intersex (or whatever). sex and gender are both spectrums, not binary. sex and gender are unrelated in that they do not have to be linked in any way, although it is more common for individuals to be cisgender (matching gender and sex) than transgender (mismatching gender and sex).

Vellfire is right in saying that trans people do not just WANT to be a certain gender-- they just ARE. saying someone "wants to be a gender" is pretty nonsensical to begin with when you just consider what the definition of gender identity is. i guess you could say that a trans person may WANT to be a certain sex, though-- which is achieved, at least partially, through hormone treatments and surgery. however, this is not a key part of what transgender necessarily IS, as there are a lot of trans people who have no desire to use hormones or surgery to change their bodies.

for example: up until this past spring, i had long hair, always-shaved legs, daily makeup, and feminine clothing. nobody would've ever referred to me as anything other than a normal girl. however, that doesn't change what i WAS-- what i AM. i'm genderqueer. i'm as much of a man as you, and as much of a woman as Vellfire. regardless of how i present myself, my gender is who i am.

Though, now that I think about it I think according to the dictionary gender and sex may be synonymous. *checks* yes it is. Which makes this a bit more confusing.

Dictionaries aren't the be-all end-all of everything, y'know.

yeah it's kind of a signifier of the lack of recognition transpeople have more than anything else

warped: you should be aware that sex is not binary. XX and XY chromosomes are not all there is-- there is XO, XXY, XXXY, and more. just like people with typical XX or XY chromosomes, people with those other conditions can be any gender, because it is not linked to sex. and anyway, X and Y chromosomes are a strictly human way of categorizing sex. even in terms of external manifestation of sex, there is a huge range among genitalia. intersex people are born with unusual sex characteristics-- for example, a baby with XX chromosomes being born with a penis, or a baby that has both ovaries and testes. these things happen, and it's not all too uncommon, either.

also yeah dictionaries do not exist for the purpose of defining TRUTH, they only provide general definitions that will likely match what the user is looking for. and if you check a dictionary of psychological or sociological terms, you will get very different definitions of "man" and "woman" than in a biology dictionary.

Erikson's own interest in identity began in childhood. Raised Jewish, Erikson appeared very Scandinavian, and felt that he was an outsider of both groups. His later studies of cultural life among the Yurok of northern California and the Sioux of South Dakota helped formalize Erikson's ideas about identity development and identity crisis. --a poorly written wikipidia article on identity crisis this isn't referring to transgender people

I'm sure mkk or someone could clarify a lot better than me but you seem to have a very simplistic or skewed or outdated or whatever idea of gender.  Your whole post frames trans people as WANTING to be a certain gender.  It's not like that.  They are that gender.  It's not about just humoring trans people by calling them the pronouns they want (that's bare minimum decency-wise).  I don't just call trans women "she" because it's what they want, it's because they literally are women.  I guess the best way to clear this up is for you to tell me exactly what you believe makes someone a woman or a man and discuss it from there.

this is a really tough concept for people to get and it's fairly recent. mopes idea isn't skewed, it's just "traditional" if youll let me be lazy in word choice. this stuff is just not a part of most people's lives, especially if you're working class or not part of academia. just gotta try and get em to see it this way, but they might not... personally I think the next best thing is tolerance. just leaving my mark, my two scents

Its it not socially acceptable to call someone utilizing a pronoun that does not fit their gender. I can get that. I don't know the actual histories of the words. The first time I heard that gender and sex meant different things was not very long ago. Though, now that I think about it I think according to the dictionary gender and sex may be synonymous. *checks* yes it is. Which makes this a bit more confusing.

Whatever, should probably stick to using the term 'gender identity' to be more specific rather than just 'gender' but that's just nitpicking.

I've ever only met two transgender people in my life. Both were pleasant women. (that is... sex=males, gender=women)

EDIT: That is, its socially unacceptable to call someone by a pronoun exclusively oriented around their sex. But I imagine honest mistakes can be made. What about 'drag queens'? are they transgender or just cisgender with... something that I don't have a word for... I suppose its a case by case basis? While I've met with one and had a short discussion about music, that is all  I talked about. I don't honestly know what the safe distinctions are.

people generally use "gender" to mean "gender identity", yeah. but the former term can also be used to refer to the sociological perceptions of masculinity and femininity, gender roles, etc... anyway, the important distinction here is simply that gender and sex and not equivalent (even if a dictionary says so). i'm glad to see you acknowledging that, and referring to the trans people you've known by their proper terms (as "women").

as for drag queens and male crossdressers-- very simple answer: they are usually cisgender men who just enjoy playing around with gender. it is an entirely different phenomenon than transgender. in fact, many trans women (my girlfriend included) find drag queens to be quite offensive.

warped, a lot of your questions are things that some basic gender studies would answer. for the simplest way to start getting into this stuff, i suggest you just start reading at this page and explore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity

EDIT: pro-tip! if you are unsure of someone's gender, there is usually no harm in asking them what their preferred pronouns are. i personally am delighted when someone asks, because it shows that they care about acknowledging my identity. by the way, my preferred pronouns are they/them/their ;D also, you should treat trans people just like anyone else, regardless of whether or not they fit your expectations of gender. and as long as you present yourself with a desire to understand and respect others, nobody will likely have a problem discussing trans issues with you.

as for drag queens and male crossdressers-- very simply answer: they are usually cisgender men who just enjoy playing around with gender. it is an entirely different phenomenon than transgender. in fact, many trans women (my girlfriend included) find drag queens to be quite offensive.

are you sure? I mean there's stuff like my campus's DRAG SHOW which is a bunch of completely cisgender frat boys and a few gay dudes dressing up in drag for a night in the name of Campus Diversity, and that's uh yeah, but there are also transgender people who do drag or wear different types of clothes. maybe you mean specifically the act of "guys messing around in women's clothes" which I think is generally innocent in intention but understandably offensive