Yeah it's definitely not a Hollywood thing but I guess I was focusing on that since we're talking about movies.

It's incredibly, incredibly rare for a character to be made gay for no real reason.  Moviemakers don't have to think about making a straight character, but if they make a character gay they really mean it.


e: Like, the people who made Brave thought very hard about making the main character a girl.  I guarantee they never once had to debate over whether or not she was going to be straight.

I know what you're sayin and dada was right. This is a default mindset period. But I dunno man. I think with hollywood you can't just go off of that because thats just a regurgitation of a subconscious problem with people in general.
 
I mean in my opinion any of those movies or any medium that does that shit most often if not always fails. Because the medium itself is a presentation of creativity and if you just go "dum dum white male straight" thats boring unless done really well and thats why that shit might sell in box office or dumb people might like it but in the bigger scheme of things is just another turd in the toilet no one will remember tomorrow.

I mean white straight men are everywhere. White straight men and white straight women who let white straight men think for them.

I'm only adding women into this because I'm from the south and marriage is a ridiculously prominant thing I'm talkin as soon as a chick gotta diploma she got a husband and a baby. This is a problem because she doesn't get to self-identify unless she's lucky and gets a good man but usually that doesn't happen very often. And they both teach the baby(ies) the same stupid ass shit and so the locust spreads.
 
So the point I'm makin is you got two different peoples perpetuating the same shit predominantly for the problem child which is the selfish mindset of the majority.

when you got SO MANY in sheer numbers how do you expect for the shit society is pumping out to be any different?
 
I mean ideas and creativity are a product of people themselves so to me so many of the same thing and the snuffing out of originality is pretty much a given and I dunno how you expect any more than that?

for what it's worth if i was writing the screenplay for the next action packed, "spine-tingling"(-aintitcoolnews.com) james bond movie i would totally make the plot twist of the movie the fact that james bond is the film's bond girl.

And this
 
or bond just being a woman counterpart and I'm talkin a total flip not bond with a gina. I really wish a good writer would do this. It would piss so many people off but it would be crazy awesome to see it done.


Also about gay anti-heros I bought the damn GTA expansions and when I saw "The ballad of gay tony" I was pissed off that it wasn't a gay protagonist. I think GTA could pull this off. Gay tony was a horrible character.

I wanted to see some flamboyant but not overly ridiculous diva gay guy hangin out the window of a purple sports car wearin a prince-esque outfit with his homeboys sprayin hookers off the side of the road and collectin their money and rippin off drug dealers just to open up his own electro-dance club/hair salon I fucking mean this this shit would be so awesome and that would prolly be the coolest game I ever played.
 
I'm talkin full nelson totally ironic gay as hell and only GTA could do this and make it actually cool and not offensive. I mean you'd have to because if you went omar little or gay tony with some nuts it wouldn't be as good.
 
Or a trans. A trans would prolly be better maybe? I'm talking like self-aware trans usin that shit to their advantage. Dude walkin into the bank in a suit and tie and robbin that shit then goin to the bathroom and walking back out as in a skirt and heels with money stuffed up his/her bra. And then rollin up on some parked cops and all swoonin at em and when they get close and are like "WHAT THE F-" gettin a load of buckshot in the face and robbed too. That is a goddamn statement in itself.
 
I want someone to tell me they wouldn't play that and like it.

So are a lot of things that GTA makes light of. And most games and tv/movies for that matter. Serious matters are played off for jokes often. IDK if you think this is wrong or not but I just don't. Though I'd probably gleefully choke anyone to death right now if they made a joke about my dog Lucy in my presence. Either that or just laugh to see if that helps forget and if it didn't then maybe I'd just collapse.

just being a woman counterpart and I'm talkin a total flip not bond with a gina.

I'm not just picking on you Mope, I see this said often and honestly I don't fucking understand what this EVEN MEANS. (mean with characters switching genders in general)

Like, if you took stereotypical element of bond's masculine personality and pasted it onto a women's body I assume this would be what you find problematic. But I don't understand how else you'd do it other than to take the same concept of stereotyping only using the women stereotypes replace the man stereotypes but having only the other bond elements that aren't strictly considered stereotypical of either gender left over. IDK what you'd have with that or if that'd be better?

Like I guess you could say we could ignore the issue of stereotypes entirely but then I don't understand the concept of "a total flip" at all. Like that term/phrase becomes meaningless.

Plain old Bond with a vagina, but retaining all the masculine elements would be just as good of a character. BECAUSE IT WOULD BE BOND. I'm not going to lie and say its the equivalent of changing what shoes he/she is wearing, as there are obvious things about women that are biologically different from men. But personality and character would remain the same would it not? otherwise it wouldn't be a woman Bond. Its be some other action heroine with perhaps bond like attributes.

Transitioning and gender are a really serious thing dude it's not something to play off for laughs.

I definitely get what you're saying and from your point of view I totally understand that but look at it from I guess my point of view or the point of view of someone not familiar with that kind of character set.

The reason I love GTA is so much is because it makes light of alot of societal issues through stereotypes and a kind of self ridicule.

I think this is the best way to reach people that just do not understand or normally care. They think they're playin a game but if you kind of slip that shit in and mask it in humor and ridiculousness it kind of makes them subconsciously think about it.

Best example I can think of is Niko Bellic; immigration and the american dream.

Its like how lil wayne is a self aware walking fucking stereotype that you'd totally think is completely ignorant and even mysogonist as hell but he kind of slips in profound cultural analysis and civic issues deep inside of his music. Even the mistreatment of women while simultaniously saying ridiculous mysogonist shit. He only does this once in awhile and its very hard to find. Drake is alot easier to spot it on cus he came out kind of presenting himself that way. But he got it from lil wayne.

Its like reverse brainwashing and its friggin awesome. But yeah they got their problems too don't get me wrong.

I'm not just picking on you Mope, I see this said often and honestly I don't fucking understand what this EVEN MEANS. (mean with characters switching genders in general)

This is actually really easy for me to explain and you should prolly be able to pick it up fairly simply.

"Bond with a gina" would be more like the ladies from Kill Bill while a complete reversal would be more like the woman from "The Long Kiss Goodnight"

I know I used this before.

They both have women acting as biological weapons and using violence as a means of communication but if you study the characters themselves how they develop and their motivation you should see what I mean.

The woman from a long kiss goodnight is an everyday generic mother coming to terms with rediscovering that she is actually a bond type military trained killing machine. The mother part is the most important aspect of that. Its something that keeps reaccuring with the character and is the most important aspect about her.

The woman from kill bill is an assassin seeking vengance for wrongdoing against her and loved ones. The way she approaches this and thinks is just like a man and there pretty much is no difference except her body, thats boring. The reason is because of friggin quintin tarintino who thinks he's clever but he ain't.

I could be wrong though cus I ain't seen the long kiss goodnight since I was in my tweens but if my memory is accurate its the best example of a stong action heroin and not a man character presented with a womans body that I can think of.

"generic mother" OK yeah that's using the biological aspect probably to a degree. But IDK if revenge is purely a man thing.

Hell, while I can't really relate to Black Mamba in Kill Bill I don't think she acts completely unrealistically for either gender specifically. Maybe unrealistic as a character in general that rides typical protagonist tropes that only seem male-only because action protagonists almost always are male.

Also I just noticed we've had this very discussion in this very topic. Starting here.

"generic mother" OK yeah that's using the biological aspect probably to a degree. But IDK if revenge is purely a man thing.

Hell, while I can't really relate to Black Mamba in Kill Bill I don't think she acts completely unrealistically for either gender specifically. Maybe unrealistic as a character in general that rides typical protagonist tropes that only seem male-only because action protagonists almost always are male.

You gotta give tarantino credit because he does try pretty hard but he just doesn't understand some stuff. Revenge is definitely not an exclusively male trait. Its how its handled which is why I think its not done right most of the time between gender. Look at how Black Mamba handles being raped. She acts more like a man than a woman would. Her reaction is pretty much stone cold and she just kills the dude and thats it. Tarintino kind of really defines the guy doing it very well but her reaction is totally off and more sociopathic and violent than I think an actual woman would react. I'm not saying she'd sit there and cry about it or get all traumatized but there definitely would be a lil more depth there.


Also more about GTA. Niko Bellic is continuously incorrectly called a "russian" throughout the movie by italians, blacks, whites, ect...This is on purpose, this is the kind of shit I'm talkin about its highlighting another form of ignorance through humor. You're niko and playing as him you automatically identify with him. So when you get called a russian you think "hey he's not a russian" even if you're some stupid ass white nationalist that rented the game to kill all dem hoodrats.
 
Another example is the main character in the "ballad of gay tony". This man is a straight ethnic dude that befriends a homosexual and throughout the game he gets called a faggot and his sexuality gets challanged because of that. Guess what? Same thing. As the protagonist you automatically self identify and when you see that shit something is subconsciously stirred.

This is just sort of an aside but considering how much we've talked about being trans in this topic you should really try not to equate genitals with gender.  "Female Bond" and "Bond with a vag" shouldn't be equated.

Well to be fair he's specifically referring to the "sex" definition of the word gender. And Female is a sex. You mean 'feminine [james] bond' shouldn't be equated with '[james] bond with a vagina'

or wait... hmmm... In less you are talking about female in the context of being female... mentally? Is there a way to medically test for that? I bet there is.

This is not my expertise.

Trans women are female, regardless of their genitals.  Trans men are male, regardless of their genitals.  Intersex people have gender identities regardless of their genitals.  Male people and female people are not categorized as "penis-havers" and "vagina-havers".

Maybe you're right about the suicide rate thing and that kind of attempt not being a good approach now. I don't personally know any trans and I'm just goin off what I see and hear from media and discussion. I do see alot of them on facebook doing that self awareness and self-ridicule though. But in a good way. Its not like a fat guy who makes fat jokes about himself to make friends and deal with his physical disadvantage. Its like a blatant realization that they're different and bizzare to other people who don't understand and they kind of take it and run with it.
 
I saw a couple of them on facebook with a bunch of different pictures and they were dressin kind of the same way you'd see a husky black woman with an attitude if you can follow that stereotype. Like, really flashy and loose almost grandma lookin clothes with huge curly wigs and big frame glasses and stubble and shit. And then making a bunch of jokes that I can't really repeat from memory but you can clearly tell they were purposefully doin that shit.
 
Maybe its a 50% suicide rate because alot of them just cannot cope with it and some of the other ones find empowerment through humor? I'm not saying all of them but I really admire that kind of approach.
 
To me it doesn't really matter if ignorant people get it or not because they prolly never will. I dunno if you've tried talking to someone who actually hates people like that and just outright refuses to aknowledge anything you're saying but its nearly if not impossible to do anything at all to make them change their minds. In my opinion the only way to do this is to trick them into thinking that way. Its a very hard thing to do. If you can trick these people to vote against themselves and trick them into furthering their hatred and displaying it in a politically acceptable manner then I don't think you can tell me that its not possible to fool them into being civil open minded humanitarians.
 

Well to be fair he's specifically referring to the "sex" definition of the word gender. And Female is a sex. You mean 'feminine [james] bond' shouldn't be equated with '[james] bond with a vagina'

He's right, I directly reference sex with gender but I think with trans people it is different. I think men and women are directly effected by their genitalia which controls hormone levels and to a point psychological response and behavior. All people have both estrogen and testosterone in their bodies that effects everything they think or do. Yes the brain is a powerful thing and maybe you can direct yourself to a point but I think that even then there are certain things the human mind alone cannot overcome. I think gay and trans people are still effected like this but because of a different chemical balance in the brain, one is more prominant than the other. I know that trans people think differently and this isn't a decision its the way they're born but if a trans person has a working penis and identifies with a female then the reason for that from my maybe flawed understanding is that biologically their minds are movin one way while their bodies another but one has to be dominant.
 
We aren't asexual creatures. We don't breed that way and trying to erase the definition between man and women because others don't identify with that is denial of the self and when I say self I mean humanity as a whole. I don't think these people should be ridiculed or excluded but I don't think society and law should be forcefully changed in order to accept this because this is not the right way. Its not a natural approach and not true acceptance. Its like forcing all the kids in a classroom to stop making fun of the odd one out because he's different for fear of punishment and not teaching them right.
 
 

Here's my counterpoint: instead of fighting stereotypes and marginalization by trying to parody those attitudes, why not create new, positive ones?  Create positive female characters, create positive gay characters, create positive black characters, create positive trans characters, etc. etc.  Don't just make them a parody of a stereotype.

Because thats not how stereotypes work. They're created by ignorant people as a way to classify and discriminate you can't make good ones and expect those people to aknowledge them.
 
Videogames.
 
When I was a kid my teachers knew kids loved videogames so they were like hey if we make educational videogames then kids will love playing them and learn the shit we're teachin em. No. All the kids knew what they were doing and when they tried them they were not entertaining and were fuckin boring so they stopped playin them.
 
This is the same approach.
 
But hell you can make one that has positive concepts and ideas but focus on entertainment and put that shit in there without them realizing it.
 
I'm tryin to think of a good example because yeah GTA is pretty heavy handed and you kind of already have to have a base understanding of the negative aspects of society to get that that is a joke and not just parroting what is seen by the creator.
 
 
I'm gonna go back to lil wayne
 
He made a song called "Fuck every girl in the world", you're gonna cringe at this but yeah when he's rapping in the song he's talking about sex but the way he does it and the way he explains himself he's saying that through wielding his own manhood he wants to show his love for every woman. Its called duality I think. Saying two things at once. On one hand he's directly talking to the mysogony of black culture and identifying with that but at the same time using it to express his admiration for all women; fat, skinny, white, black, whatever if you're a woman he loves you for it.
 
Its the kind of stuff you have to look for. Its the perpetuation of lyricism and music. You can take the shit at face value as an asshole but if you're someone who loves music and understanding its purpose then you will see this its right there and not hard to find at all.
 
Thats why alot of people don't like him anymore. He ain't "real" no more. The guy used to be a dumbass kid saying ignorant shit but since like carter II or III he keeps injecting that shit into his music and alot of those same ignorant people are realizing it and still refusing to accept it but others love it and eat it up.
 
He still makes millions and millions off of both people doing this. Using his money to build community centers, skate parks, charity organizations, and all kinds of shit. Fuck there is a video online of him at an ametuer boxing match between two women I think one was black and the other white and he gave the winner like 25,000 in cash and kissed her on the cheek do not tell me that this is not a brilliant way to change the world.
 
Fuck I was drivin one of my co-workers home and he grew up in the 9th ward of louisianna and got shot in the head at 14 while takin part in gang violence and has a terrible scar on the left side of his head. He is one of the most understanding and compassionate dudes I know. He's friends with a transvestite thats actually comin to work out here and alot of the gay mexicans we work with when in mexico and guess what? We joke with them about their homosexuality but in a friendly way and they joke back. I didn't do it at first because that was a line I didn't wanna cross but when I saw those guys who barely spoke any english making fun of themselves with him and flirting with him when they knew he was straight as hell and he laughed and joked at em. That is so much more powerful then anything, then acting like the shit isn't there or that you're not different. Because you can be exactly who you are and fuck with someone else for bein different and not because you're trying to demean them or put yourself above them but by saying there are no lines to be crossed and you both know exactly who you are and that is the perfect way to exclaim it in a way that anyone can respect and understand. He took me to meet his family and when I was drivin him home he showed me one of lil waynes community centers located on the west bank of new orleans in a huge white suburb.

This kind of shit is why I love louisiana and new orleans because only those people can understand that shit and I have never really seen it so profoundly anywhere in the world I've been.
 
 
Humor is the lubrication of life. It is the ultimate way to cope with horrible horrible things. it is the best way to share an idea and do it in a way that any idiot can understand. When someone laughs you know they understand what you're saying because it is a natural response like coughing or breathing. They actually teach you when you do what I do to use humor to communicate and deal with whats goin on around you. If hell is falling all around you and you can still laugh about it you are the strongest person in the world and absolutely nothing can hurt you.

Yeah I'm gonna agree to disagree and stop at this point after bein called phobic. I don't think either of us are gonna agree and I'm gonna respect your opinions by not being an asshole either.

If you keep pressin me I will be though. You can get angry and yell about this stuff to ignorant people.

I do that on a daily basis. Its very tiring and I gotta find another way before my brain collapses in upon itself because I cannot smoke weed anymore to deal with it and make myself not give a shit but sobriety is such a motherfucker.