Sweeeeeeeet. Looks nicely polished!

Biggles, I know what I'd want in it. Since I don't know the first thing about making an online/multiplayer game as far as programming though, it'll never come to fruition because of me.

As for the ones out there, I agree. So far I've been able to recognize 3 factors that make these games turn out crappy.

1. Like you said, big idea but not well thought out. The main reason they can't tend to fix this is because the early stages are not planned well and the project is thrown together halfheartedly by a couple amateurs. Crappy promoting of the game plays a big factor in anything half decent working out here.

2. They just want to make it the biggest and best of everything so they can get a ton of players and start making money off the game. As soon as profit is the incentive, these games suck balls. Period.

3. Too much player involvement in the games design. I've seen a couple games where the players can make maps to add to the game (the designers pitch it as a community thing and how you can get involved, but really its just to make the game bigger without them having to do all the mapping.) When you let just anybody make maps, you get a LOT of crap. In other words, these games turn out looking like an 8yr old kids first attempt at mapping with RTP. Same goes for letting players design the quests - they become very generic. Most people can not imagine quests beyond the limits of what they already know. Such as collection quests, travel quests, defeating quests and protecting quests.

Elder Scrolls serves as the largest inspiration to my current game and ideology on RPG's in general. Heck, Arena was so big to walk from one side of the map to the other non stop took 2 weeks (in real time!). As for your two hero options:

If you want to have classes, I say go with a multi-hero system, or at least obtainable comrades. If you're doing a single hero system I suggest removing classes and making specific skills upgradable like in ES. My game is using a one hero, non-linear approach with no classes. The way I'm approaching the hero's ability to "level" is different than I've seen in any game new or old. Not sure if it will work, but seems more realistic and offers new challenges to players.

I'm loyal to 2003 simply because I enjoy the graphic styles better. I envy VX for its versatility though.

SW, besides the fact that RPG Maker isn't online, non-multiplayer, limited capacity in programming, etc, etc?

For a single player it works wonders. However if you want a large interactive world you need to be able to get online. For the individual player, well, that's what I'm working on building now.

UPRC: I think this might be what you're talking about: http://www.hyruleonline.net/art-and-screenshots?album=1&gallery=1
Looks crappy, haha.

Found an interesting link:
http://www.mmorpg100.com/index.php?cat=2d%20mmorpg

So far these look the closest to what I'm thinking about:
http://www.zezeniaonline.com/library/screenshots/2.html (menu at least)

http://www.secretsofmirage.com/index.php?action=screens (style, fo'shiz)

http://www.skyon.be/category/image-galleries/offical-screenshots (sweet!)

Hmm. My initial thought is that this would get done really bad. However, if it was done with more of a focus on the play for an individual instead of for group play, then I think it could really be successful. For example, complicated quests, massive free-roaming exploring (not like WOW where the monsters get impossible unless you sit in one location forever building up your level.) If the whole world was balanced more by equipment than by leveling and rare equipment was actually rare, I think that would be tons-o-fun.

In that case, I'm really looking forward to it.

500x500 world map zoomed out to 1/8.

Hidden content (Click to reveal)

Are the locations already mapped out too or is this a brand new project? Looks interesting.

I have this concept that I'm sure I will never make see the day. Quickly summarized:

- Massive Online World with player interaction. Think World of Warcraft in terms of player interaction.
- Simple 2D graphics something like older FF games or Dragon Warrior.
- A complex menu system and multi-level environment but still in the 2D (or as I would call it, 2.5D) world.

Not something done in RM, but the same kind of game style wise. Just with all the complexity and options of a massive current game.

Has this been done? If so, where can I find it because I think that would be the most fun I've ever had in a game?

Bald, I think the two priorities that should be handled immediately (IMO) are:

1. The main site. I suggest linking directly to the forum until, if in the future, there is a main site ready to go.
2. Site registration being fixed.

Outside of that I think is now in the communities hands for the most part.

You claim that RM is not bad, then you say it can be used to make literally one thing with maybe a few customizations and a vast majority of stuff made with it is made entirely for the person making it and not at all with anybody else in mind. I don't know about you, but that doesn't even come close to clearing my bar for good.

I didn't say it can be used to make literally one thing with maybe a few customizations. It was designed for one thing and when people used it for that they got shafted. Seems silly to me. I used to maker to design a Zelda style game, a card game, an arcade-style shooter (although mouse control would have drastically improved that), a classic room-to-room murder adventure game (almost done), as well as a classic style RPG with a few handy innovations that the maker is easily equipped for (current project). It is capable of more but not everyone has the skills (main reason) to use it for more and again, some people want to stick to the classics. My current project I am making for me because I'm having a lot of fun making it. That doesn't mean I'm not challenging myself to be innovative and to make it very enjoyable for others. But if I put it out there and you hate it, I'm not going to be upset about it because at least I had fun doing it. If I was making a game for you and I put it out there after a year or two of working on it and you hated it, where do I go from there? What a waste of time if I didn't even have fun making it. So no, its not made entirely for the person making it but that is the first audience (regardless of the maker you use). If I was working for Bungie, EA, Bethesda or any other company my first priority would be making a game I like too, seeing as I'm a gamer.

On the subject of the RM community: If all you want to do with an internet forum is post a game you make entirely for yourself using ripped (illegal) resources and expect everybody else to love and adore unconditionally and actively avoid interaction with the other sections of the forum, you are definitionally an asocial bottom feeder. This is not even debatable.

There are plenty of free-to-use legal resources available out there. Some custom, some modified. It is true there are some illegal ones too and it seemed people usually went for these because they got shit on for using RTP graphics which come free with the program and are free to use. People didn't want to see RTP all the time and not everyone can do custom graphics, thus illegal graphics were used. If you think a new person to the forum could get custom graphics made for his new game he/she's starting then you are living in a dream world. Without proof of something substantial and/or previous (awesome) games it was impossible to recruit help. Fact. And people would get shit on again for asking and not providing proof they will finish the game and make it worth the time of said artists. Fair enough for an artist to not want to waste their time, but then don't expect every game to have unique graphics either. I'm not sure what you mean by, "and expect everybody else to love and adore unconditionally and actively avoid interaction with the other sections of the forum." I guess whatever you mean here makes us asocial bottom feeders. Saying, "This is not even debatable" does not make it so.

Subject of innovation: Yes, I get that there are people that WANT to stick to the classic idea. The problem is that there were several instances where people would try to do something innovative and it would immediately get buried under all the other garbage, so eventually they just stopped trying. There's nothing wrong with embracing the classic idea, but you can't embrace it to the exclusion of nearly everything else. And, yeah, I remember the "exceed the limitations" contests. Those were great. Why didn't anybody go on to using game makers that don't HAVE those arbitrary limitations, though? Because every single time anybody did, it got buried. Your community was a self-destructive mess and nearly everybody that tried to change that got curbstomped by the circlejerk.

Nobody stopped trying. Some people went to other forums (it happens), some people kept trying (myself included). When you say "garbage" is it because you don't like it? Well, you can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time. If you want really mature game devs than perhaps you should make people have to be 21+ to join the forum. Fact is this is (or was) mostly young kids just trying to have fun. I don't know if you have kids but if you do or ever do, I hope you don't tell them their stuff is garbage when they bring a finger painting home for you in kindergarten. Why can you not embrace the classic idea to the exclusion of nearly everything else? Sure you can invite other ideas in but when the majority is sticking to that idea then why alienate them? Obviously they are more active anyway. You say "your community." If you weren't active in it or didn't want part in it then why do you care? People doing what they love is not a self-destructive mess. The people in G&D were generally liking the way things were. The people outside of G&D seen the board as inadequate. That sounds like an issue for the other people not for G&D. Why not make an RM board and a separate board for other engines? Oh, they did. What happened? The other boards where not active enough. Shocking. So that's RM's fault.

Subject of new concepts: If the maker isn't designed to accommodate for new concepts, it's a shitty maker. Plain and simple. New concepts are the lifeblood of game development, amateur or not. Hell, especially amateur game development.

Its not that it isn't designed to accommodate for new concepts. Its just that it was designed for a classic RPG (which in itself can be quite broad). If it does what it was designed to do then it is NOT a shitty maker. In fact, that makes it a great maker. If it couldn't do what it was designed for it would be a shitty maker. It's like you want to pick up PS controller and play a Nintendo game. The PS controller wasn't made for it. Lets call a carrot peeler a blender and then say it makes a shitty carrot peeler because it doesn't blend. I agree the games should have original and unique ideas, but they can do that in the "limitations" of RM. Most people were working on their first game however, and the focus was on learning/playing around with it rather than making a game properly (which is more work than fun a lot of the time).

Games without ripped content: I never said everybody should be pixel artists. I don't believe everybody should be pixel artists. Communities are formed by people with similar interests and differing talents. Leverage the pixel artists already in your community properly, foster an open community that helps include them and attracts more of them, and they WILL come, and they will create resources for you. Same with musicians, same with programmers, same with every single aspect of game development. If you make a community that's satisfied using ripped resources, only one very limited maker, and doesn't make an effort to recruit people who can change this, you aren't going to attract anybody but exactly the people who are already there, and you're never going to get the kind of people you should be looking for. Also: I would MUCH rather play somebody's shitty MS Paint RPG adventure that they made all of the resources for even if they aren't very good than a game built entirely on ripped resources. At least it shows they give enough of a shit about their game to try their hand at a new skill.

I didn't say you said everybody should be pixel artists. That was just a minor comment to say not everyone can make their own graphics. "Leverage the pixel artists already in your community properly." I saw a lot of requests for help but unless you "proved" yourself by already releasing a game there was little hope to get any serious help. "If you make a community that's satisfied using ripped resources..." Nobody made a community like that. Perhaps the community came together like that because of similar interests. That does support your theory. So if they had similar interests and they were a community, then why bash them and tell them they're doing it wrong? "You aren't going to attract anybody but exactly the people who are already there." Again, similar interests. It seems to me that you just didn't like the people that where there. That sounds like a you problem. "You're never going to get the kind of people you should be looking for." There you go alienating the active community again. If you don't want those type of people why not just delete G&D and put a board up called "Every Maker But RM"? You might like a shitty MS Paint RPG as you call it, but other people like other things. There are games posted in G&D now that I think look like absolute stupid shit thrown together without a thought of innovation, creativity, or skill involved. It looks more like they just wanted something different (like yourself) but didn't think it through. I hate these games. However, some people here like them. Personally I'd take a classic RPG over those games any day. I feel like you and I are in a different time. I'm in 2010 where people realize they can have their own opinions, original thoughts, ideas, likes and dislikes. You seem to be in 1950 where everybody needs to think what they are told to think. Why is it so bad for you (and others in GW) to have to put up with some things you don't like?

A wait 0.0sec could accompany just about every picture command. It will reduce script lag, but might increase the time for scrolling more than you want.

Typically lag is directly related with pictures. At least this is what happens in my own experience. Any move picture command I put in my game is either followed by a wait 0.0sec or is checked for Wait Until Done (or whatever it says in the move command).

Blue Erdgeist, I like the interior shot.

No, RM really is bad. Or was bad. Maybe it's better now. Even if it isn't, the community surrounding it has, by and large, historically been asocial bottom feeders who would rather rehash the same discussions over and over and promote mediocre games than strive for actual innovation, new concepts, or even just GAMES WITHOUT RIPPED CONTENT. The fact that they don't aspire for anything more than maybe a custom battle system and custom menu system is EXACTLY why every single member of it fights against the claims that it is bad, because for a vast majority of the "golden days," there was a pretty solid ceiling for RM games. And it was pretty low.

RM is not bad. A lot can be done with it. The point of the program was to make classic RPG's, which is what most people used it for. It was meant to be fun, although most people forget that games in RM are usually being made for the maker and not the GW audience. So the 12yr old kid who started using it for fun gets crapped on for making a shitty game that was only supposed to be for fun and suddenly the maker and the G&D community are bottom feeders?

Asocial bottom feeders? Not really. G&D is content specific. I don't come here for general discussion or to see peoples drawings. I come here because I enjoy amateur games. It's not asocial to visit the board that interests me or to not go on IRC because I don't have a lot of time for this stuff. (I'd rather be working on my game.) Perhaps some of these discussions were being rehashed because G&D attracted NEW members who hadn't seen those discussions before? Well, at least we shouldn't have to worry about that anymore.

Strive for actual innovation: Some people are making these games for fun and WANT to stick to the classic idea. They are not spending hours upon hours of their life for YOU to approve the game. It's for them. Meanwhile some people do come up with innovation, as much as the program can allow. In the past there were even contests that specifically aimed at going beyond the limits of the maker.

New concepts: I see these all the time. Again, this isn't really what the maker was designed for either but new concepts are constantly coming in even now when the site is dead.
Games without ripped content: Anyone that is TRULY striving for an original game and perhaps one to make others happy instead of themselves, or one to make money, won't be using RM. They will learn how to use a more sophisticated program and make all the graphics from scratch. I'm one of those people that works a full-time job and finds it difficult to spend the extra hours on original graphics that will eventually lead to the game never being complete because I simply won't have enough time. Not to mention not everyone is a pixel artist.


If you don't like the games then don't play them. If you don't like amateur games than stay out of G&D, because that's what it is. This isn't really a community of breath-taking games. Many of the users are young teens that have just discovered where to download RM2k3. Get over yourself and let these kids have some fun.

UPRC: I should be pretty close. Perhaps I was a little older when I first joined. I know I was on this site when I was 15 for sure. I'm 26 now (just turned 26).

UPDATE:

Haven't been making leaps and bounds lately. I'm writing quests and dialog on my lunch breaks at work and trying to implement them when I have time at home. Lately the biggest thing I've done is perfected my dialog system.



I intend to have a large amount of dialog in the game. I wondered how I could do this without spending forever creating dialog for each NPC and programming facesets, etc. I also wanted to keep dialog very expandable without having to edit a bunch of sprites with every expansion. Obviously I needed to use some common events. To get past the problem of facesets I simply used the "You" and "Them" images that slide in/out from the sides of the screen so you know which character is talking. Simple but it works. An example of how some of the dialog works...

If you've ever played Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind, you know that there is a list of dialog options to the right of the character. Some of this is common dialog such as Morrowind Lore or Rumors. If you picked one of these options you would be randomly selected dialog from a single source on that topic. I use this same concept in game, modified.

There are three types of common dialog: Rumors, Things of Interest, Lore

Instead of simply putting the options: Rumors, Things of Interest and Lore, I might phrase it something like this:



"Hi whats your name?" and "What do you do?" are asking about the NPC and are event specific responses.
"Any rumors floating around?" Is obvious. It might also read something like, "Whats the good word?" or "Anything happening around here?"
"You came by ship..." Leading into a conversation. This particular NPC responds by talking a bit about his travels and then pulls up the Lore common event for some random information.
"Whats on your mind?" Pulls up the Things of Interest common event.


These common events are built specifically for each city. The above dialog is for Al'Norvin. There would be completely different discussions in Secron, Evony City, Aeschylus, Veles, so on and so forth. Not every NPC pulls up common dialog and sometimes you don't realize that its even common dialog as there is so much diversity to it (which is the point). The options for dialog are specific to the NPC event. So we can talk about the NPC, specific quest, specific dialog, common dialog, bartering, etc.

With this system I can also have quests start by random chance of talking to the right person at the right time. You could be talking to some useless NPC about the rumors or things of interest and bam, you have a quest. The quest continues without being repeated. I can even be specific to a group, such as city guards. One guard could randomly tell you that they are looking for a bandit leader, you could offer to find him, and then later while you are talking to another guard he might ask you how the hunt for the bandit leader is going. Then once you catch the bandit leader a guard might ask you if you were the guy that caught the bandit leader or tell you what a great job you did. This can be expanded as much or as little as needed in the future. You can even be the rumor. Perhaps you did something epic for The Queen. People might start saying, "Hey, arent you that guy that did that thing?"

You might notice that what's is spelled whats. In this game ' is specific to the dialect.

It wouldn't be Al'Norvin's, it's simply Al'Norvins. In Luna "Al" is a holy word. It can reflect a couple meanings such as "Great" or "Holy," depending on its usage. Al'Norvin is somewhat like Great 'Norvin where Al'Atra (the Goddess) is Holy 'Atra.

I have not quite decided how ' should be pronounced.

Well enough of this, I have some characters to implement...

no one in the community wanted to write any kind of article

Just a quick mention on this: I wrote several articles and tutorials. I spent time on each and they were done quite well. They needed to be approved before being added to the site. So either no one was doing any approving or the site did not allow these articles to get properly submitted (I suspect this). I messaged a couple people (mods or admins, I can't remember) back then to see if this could be resolved. I never did get any answers and nothing I wrote was ever added to the site.

Any successful forum/website needs active leadership, primarily active admin(s). I.M.O. the staff are the cause of the "downfall" of GW.

I see this site as a place to get some minor feedback: almost always entirely negative and rarely constructive.

Some of the "veterans" of GW are the people that really drag what community there was down. Not to mention any names *cough* 12683 posts joined Feb 13, 2004 *cough*

This site stopped being fun for me a long, long time ago. Again I frequent it for the odd feedback.

I think the main page should just be taken down and instead be directly linked to the forums. That makes 100% sense to me. Keeping a broken page that deters new comers seems pretty stupid. For most of the time I've been a member (and this is my second account) there has not been a working main page.

I was a member here when I was 13. That was 13 years ago. I've been in and out of there the whole time and I do not remember any "golden age."

There are a few nice people here and I see the odd nice looking game (even if most aren't finished). This gives me some inspiration to keep going on my projects, and this is the reason I keep coming back.

That is my two cents.

I try to think of every piece of the game as a system that needs to be designed, planned and implemented. Each system needs to be introduced at a particular point in development and needs to be completed in it's entirety before I can move on to the next system (the most difficult thing here is patience as it does take some of the fun out of designing a game.)

So what "systems" does an RPG need?

Let's look at game mechanics first:

Menu system: Customized? Will you need images, etc? Draw up a basic layout of what you want to see in the menu. If you plan on having a Quest Log, an Action Battle System or a unique inventory system, then you might as well customize your menu. Will it include a stat screen? What else will it have. Again, draw up a basic design of what you want as this may change as you figure out what you want in other systems (in which case, the menu might not be the first thing you develop.)

Battle System: This has several steps or sub-systems as I like to call them. Everything from monster development to battle animations to monster stats coupled with equipment stats. If it's an action battle system then there is a lot more to consider when it comes to programming.

Now if you are starting development from the above stages, planning around game mechanics, then you are probably trying to bring something unique to the table in regards to game play. Chances are you got a real good idea for a battle system first and then decided to make a game around it. If this is the case then design, implement and play test the crap out of that battle system before moving on to any other steps. Have it perfected. If it's an action system chances are there are events that need to be on every map, thus programming this first is essential to saving time as you can then copy a blank map with the events already on them to save hours of your time. This is not the approach I take...

If you are making a traditional RPG using one of the RPGMakers and you intend to use default menu/battle system, then I suggest the following...

Build a world map. If you haven't completed a game before then start small, 100x100 or 200x200 or so for your whole world. Fill this in with detail and really think about where your towns and other objectives are being placed. What order will the player be reaching these places, if any (non-linear). Have your world map perfected? Excellent...

Now there are two ways I see to proceed. The first (and unfortunately the way I choose) is to map out the entire game. Get ALL the mapping out of the way with the exception of possibly a few special quest locations that you may plan on later. Map the cities, map the interiors, map your caves, map until you hate mapping (I hate mapping.) Good, now STOP MAPPING AND MOVE ON. Again, the trick is to complete an entire "system" before moving on. Mapping is a system. If you map one town now, then spend 6 months developing other parts of your game, then you go back to mapping, you might start mapping in another style, or you might decide your first town is too dull, etc. This makes you jump around a lot. FOCUS. Get the mapping done first. It's frustrating, but you can do it. Something that helps is to plan to make the game expandable LATER. For instance, make a city so big now, then when you complete the game you may wish to add maps to that city to make it larger. Perhaps you'll add whole other towns in expansions. Keep it under your control to start though. Plan what you are mapping out ahead of time and stick to that mapping plan. I added blank maps organized by region, city, interior with everything named before I actually started making the maps. This way I just had to fill in the blanks. It's like a personal progress bar on the side.

If you don't want to jump right to mapping the other way to go is to really flush out your world (I recommend this way). After making your world map write a whole bunch of history for each location and the world itself. Design the religion, the politics, previous wars, current events (is there a war brewing? noooo... in an RPG? wowzers), etc. Develop some dialog for the NPC's, specific to each location. In city one perhaps people are really concerned about the King having a bad hair day and this may somehow result in taxes being raised. In another city people might be really chillaxed and not give a crap, even though they are facing impending doom. For a real approach create a ton of dialog and implement it in common events so that it's easy to give to multiple NPC's while maintaining variety. Maybe there are 20 things an NPC in city 1 might say about religion. Well, make an event that allows you to ask about religion and then have a variable choose 1-20 with a different phrase in each. Random every time. Summary: History, dialog, general interest in each region (what will city one include? a library, boat launch, castle, casino, mostly houses, etc?) Why will the player want/need to visit each location? If there is no reason to visit, there is no reason to have the location. What is unique about each location? Basing cities around the real world adds uniqueness believe it or not. Perhaps one city will have waterways instead of roads (Venice), be high up in the trees (Amazon), be western, industrial, etc etc. Plan the hell out of your world. Once you do this coming up with ideas for quests is REALLY easy. So easy in fact that you should have a file open while designing your world to put in quest ideas as you go, as they will come naturally. The next step is naturally to fill in your quest ideas. From here your game is essentially planned. All that's left is the work (boo). You need to program in the systems to fit with the design you've come up with. Again, mapping is a great way to start if you're using default systems. It's pretty difficult to implement quests if you don't have any maps or NPC's. Take logical steps.


WHAT NOT TO DO:

Make map 1 a house you start in, place your start spot. Add an NPC that welcomes you with some bullshit undeveloped story of what is wrong with the world and how you are an unlikely hero, but still need to fix it all anyway. Have him give you a sword and a smile and say good luck. Then add music to the map and fill in some overlay. Then start adding party members and making your first monster battle. Then go back to the room an add a book that gives you a fire ball spell so you can test magic on your monster. Then make a map of the around around your house and put a barrel next to your door with a wooden shield in it. Then program a plant that gives you an ingredient you just made up because you suddenly decided alchemy would be fun to have.

Don't do that.

Basically there are tons of ways to make a game, few of them successful, none of them successful without planning. Plan and stick to that plan, whatever order you want to do it in. Perhaps you can work on two unrelated portions of the game at once so it doesn't get too tedious. For example, I map for a while and when mapping pisses me off too much I do some quest ideas. By the time mapping is finished I have 50 quests to implement (not a daunting task at all).