Scary Why do people keep using rtp , rips , or someone else's material? (Read 4482 times)

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I don't mind analogies as long as they actually say the same thing you're using them to explain, which most of the ones in this topic didn't.  Please share your food analogy.


edit: In fact I have one of my own:  most of the analogies in these threads were comparing apples to oranges.  Zing!
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Whoever is arguing about having a great game, but being unable to make decent graphics, here is my advice.

Make the graphics anyway. Sometimes badly drawn graphics do a game 100x better than graphics that look good on the surface, but players will immediately recognize them coming from another game. If the graphics take too long, just do them with a limited palette or in NES style. (if they still take too long, you are either not dedicated enough, or your game is too big. The good news is that it's always either one of these reasons.)

The high majority of games with graphics people recognize as stolen will be overlooked as "too amateur to waste my time playing", while some of the greatest, most recognized indie games are done so because they have graphics their five year old sister could have made. You are right in saying that graphics are just substance. They do make the first impression, and if you are an amateur, then you shouldn't be afraid of that being your first impression. The point is that if you want your first impression to be that of a creative game developer (as opposed to an uncreative one), then you simply have to have graphics that give some indication of something "created". Something someone else created years ago just doesn't cut it.

I'm not really sure that this really has to do with the graphics.  Let's be honest, you can sort of tell whether a game is "too amateur" based on the overall presentation, regardless of whether they used rips or not.  For those who allow the chipset palletes in rm2k3 limit the way they present their graphics, it's obvious because it will result in crappy map design.  Clearly, if their hero is a Crono charset with a japanese-style name, and the chip sets are a mix of rtp, sd3, and zelda, it's likely that the overall presentation is going to be crap.. and if the presentation is crap, rest assured their storyline, gameplay, etc. will be just as jumbled, or amateur.  In that way, I don't respect those who used character sets from games that have an emotional connotation to them... like crono, or link, etc. in a different context.

I think people should be a little more mindful of where their graphics are coming from.  I don't appreciate homemade graphics if they're so poorly done that it affects the quality of the game.  You're right, the high majority of games with stolen graphics come across as amateur, but this has more to do with the creators in the community than being a manifestation of the graphics.  Naufragar was a popular game that used rips, but because the creator spent time into the overall quality of the game, it didn't deter people from playing it.  that's just one example.  The most popular games (legion saga, ara fell, hero's realm, sacred earth: bonds, balmung cycle, and the list goes on) used graphics that are known to people, yet become extremely popular in the indie gaming community.
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Using ripped graphics is the number 1 way to make your game look amateur. It's like THE way.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say, though, whether ripped graphics is bad or not.
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I can't resist asking this... but would you rather:

1. Play a game with ripped, overused graphics with an excellent storyline and all else?

or

2. Play a game with beautiful custom graphics, but the game is filled with "LOL PENIS" jokes and a basic, uninspiring storyline?
Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 05:22:25 pm by Corfaisus
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I can't resist asking this... but would you rather:

1. Play a game with ripped, overused graphics with an excellent storyline and all else?

or

2. Play a game with beautiful custom graphics, but the game is filled with "LOL PENIS" jokes and a basic, uninspiring storyline?

Obviously the former, but that's really not the issue. It's more would you rather play a game with lower quality, completely custom graphics, or one with professional rips?
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I can't resist asking this... but would you rather:

1. Play a game with ripped, overused graphics with an excellent storyline and all else?

or

2. Play a game with beautiful custom graphics, but the game is filled with "LOL PENIS" jokes and a basic, uninspiring storyline?
Yeah dude this isn't even what the issue is. This is a dumb question because in reality this is hardly ever the case. Nobody here is talking about making beautiful custom graphics. The point is that even sub-par custom graphics are better than rips, because it's the only way your game will ever be taken seriously. If you are not interested in having your game taken seriously, then there's no problem here. Most people however do expect their game to be taken seriously despite generally putting very little effort into anything except the storyline and character bios. I guess my whole point is that it's pretty clear these people shouldn't actually be making RPGs, but writing screenplays or fiction.

And just because your game has sub-par graphics does not mean it WON'T be taken seriously. Nobody is going to lush over your crappy graphics, sure, but if you actually have a decent game but cannot make any graphics at all, then you can find somebody who will actually help you because they can see that you actually have a game. It's not wasted time for them.

And I guess the whole point of THAT argument is that this is not too much work to be bothered with if you are bothering to make a game in the first place.  Using rips is taking the easy way out, the way that does not require you actually give a shit.
Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 05:47:51 pm by Gabriel
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Gabriel has a point here, so lets go with the more likely scenario:

would you rather play:
1. a game with ripped graphics, decent gameplay, and a boring, uninspiring story or

2. the same game with sub-par but original graphics.

See how the custom or ripped graphics don't really matter in this situation...?

lets take another look at this:

1. A game with ripped and edited graphics that are used perfectly, (but no main character sprites from snes games) - has one of the most intriguing storylines you've ever read, and a sweet battle system. 
or
2. The same story/battle system but with custom graphics that are used in a decent manner, but lack uniform style/polish.

You see what i'm getting at, it's about the overall presentation of the game.
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It's a matter of personal preference I guess because I would always 100% prefer original graphics. It's honestly a little insulting that you would consider hand-made graphics crappy. The fact that the person did it is reason enough to give props. You are too much of a snob/elitist at this point; these are hobby/indie games, stealing graphics is just lazy and dumb.

And just to reiterate I actually WOULD prefer option 2 from the first example, because at least it's THEIR game. The custom graphics ABSOLUTELY matter in that case, because if the story/gameplay suck then only reason to play it would be... to see ripped graphics you've seen before? That doesn't make any sense.

Again I would rather have the second option from the second example too, and in fact it seems strange to me that you would prefer option 1 since option 2 is actually, in my opinion anyway, the preferred place to be in when making your own game. Unless you are a professional graphic artist anybody expecting polish from the artwork is just being rude and elitist.

As a simple and overwhelming example, look at any of cactus' games. The graphics are arguably the lowest form anybody could muster without it being black-and-white squares, and yet they are very endearing and add style and flair to the games. Nobody could say they are polished/professional, but they work and make the game unique and original.
Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 06:43:11 pm by Gabriel
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Again I would rather have the second option from the second example too, and in fact it seems strange to me that you would prefer option 1 since option 2 is actually, in my opinion anyway, the preferred place to be in when making your own game. Unless you are a professional graphic artist anybody expecting polish from the artwork is just being rude and elitist.

As a simple and overwhelming example, look at any of cactus' games. The graphics are arguably the lowest form anybody could muster without it being black-and-white squares, and yet they are very endearing and add style and flair to the games. Nobody could say they are polished/professional, but they work and make the game unique and original.

Yeah you know, it is a matter of personal preference.  I didn't say that I preferred option 1 in either of those cases tho, just wanted to clarify.  i wouldnt play either of the games in the first example, and I'd play both games in the second example.  It is a case by case situation tho, as you point out with cactus making good overall games using original graphics. 
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I agree personal preference comes into play somewhat, but from an objective position the opinion should be that ripped graphics are for the most part wrong and a bad sign when used. Whether or not someone personally likes games that use ripped graphics (....?) admitting that they are dumb and not ideal should be the opinion of everyone. Their use should be discouraged, even if someone in particular likes seeing crono and cloud get into new adventures and travel to new lands.
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It's a matter of personal preference I guess because I would always 100% prefer original graphics. It's honestly a little insulting that you would consider hand-made graphics crappy. The fact that the person did it is reason enough to give props.

I can respect that someone put the effort in to make their own content, but that doesn't mean I automatically have to like their work. If the graphics are hideous to me, I'm probably not going to spend too much time playing the final product, unless the gameplay is so spectacular (hint, usually it isn't, but I have been surprised in the past) that it offsets the migraine I'm going to get from staring at the thing for x number of hours.
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would you rather play:

 :cool:

or

 :fogetcool:

????
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omg foget game
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I can respect that someone put the effort in to make their own content, but that doesn't mean I automatically have to like their work. If the graphics are hideous to me, I'm probably not going to spend too much time playing the final product, unless the gameplay is so spectacular (hint, usually it isn't, but I have been surprised in the past) that it offsets the migraine I'm going to get from staring at the thing for x number of hours.
This is sort of my point. If looking at a game that has custom crappy graphics (or sub-par) makes you go "ughh" but seeing one made this generic overused rips makes you go "Ooohh" then there is something wrong. My whole thing here is that this attitude is shitty IMO and rips should be chastised and looked down upon. We should be fueling creativity, not creative uses of other people's works.
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This is sort of my point. If looking at a game that has custom crappy graphics (or sub-par) makes you go "ughh" but seeing one made this generic overused rips makes you go "Ooohh" then there is something wrong. My whole thing here is that this attitude is shitty IMO and rips should be chastised and looked down upon. We should be fueling creativity, not creative uses of other people's works.

I don't go "Ooohh" over a game with rips, but if what I'm looking at actually works, and with the inconsistency between ripped resources that can be a dicey proposition anyway, then I accept it and move on. I just think that going original, when talent (or lack thereof) precludes it, can be a mistake.

It has been stated before that most 'professional' games are the product of a crew of developers,artists,composers, writers, testers...etc. I'd rather see the burgeoning game developer work on their story/gameplay chops than spend all their time spriting stick figures or hunting for contract artists.

At a certain point, I think most people with the capacity for it move away from rips anyway. You can only bend them so far without having to heavily edit them. Once you pass the point of diminishing returns, when you've spent enough time editing your resources to have allowed you to create your own, the light comes on.

From my point of view, the question has to do with things like chipsets more than charsets. I've had to come up with my own charsets for a while because nothing that was out there captured the look and feel I was going for, but for the most part, I'm still pretty terrible with backgrounds. If I'm not trying to sell my game and if the gameplay does not require/integrate custom backgrounds as a feature, spending an inordinate amount of time on my sets is is a waste. That time could have been better spent tightening up other aspects of the game.

If it was something I intended to sell, then the process would be different. Everything would have to be original, and of a high enough quality that I could stand behind it without feeling like a fool. (Not to mention the fact that it wouldn't be made in an illegally translated/distributed program)
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obviously consistency matters and that's a graphical problem but that's not any excuse to favour rips: i am pretty much underlining Gabriel's last post, it's the general attitudes that stink.

also the point of rtp/rips giving more to creativity is a moot since the graphics put the game to a certain tone or atmosphere and if you start building your game on rips from the beginning with then welp what can i say.  :welp: also you can argue that they can be just temporary but that's just a lie, in most of cases the creators don't bother with changing the graphics at any point of the creation process but rather build the game ON them. edits are just edits. (also ethical problem editing some other persons work to make your own?!)

ugh i didn't think of this thoroughly (it's a huge topic to write about) and propably wrote this fast but i think the main points come across. if you think Gabriel or thecatamites are the only one who thinks like this BOY i hope you got lot of clips in reserve!! get ready to a bloodbath!!!!!
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Okay, so someone composes midi music, but they use a sound font that they did not create themselves. Is this the same thing? Someone downloads some drum loops and builds their song over that, is that the same thing? Anyone who used the alesis drum machine (hello 80's) to program the backbone of their beats is in the same boat?

How about painting? Using a color that someone else mixed... is this blasphemy? If you don't go out and extract your own pigments from leaves, barks, and minerals, are you a fraud?

These are extremes, but they express my point. In the case of rtp or other resources offered freely (obviously, not so much with rips), people are using something that was offered to them for the express purpose of creating their content.

I argue that the final product can be more then the sum of its parts. Sure, Frankensteining a game together is not the optimal route, but I wouldn't cut someone off completely just for doing it.

Are we going to extend this to other facets of game development? Should we instinctively disown any game that uses a script that the creator did nor originate? This sets a dangerous precedent. All the games that use Havok, Euphoria, or some generation of the Unreal Engine go out the window. I'd rather play Deus Ex than the first Unreal any day. It took something that existed and made improvements, added its own special flair.

Analogy police: Oh ho, this is not the same thing... these are licensed elements.

Yes, of course they are. Money usually changes hands. After all, there is a profit to be made from the final product, ideally at least.

In a game that is not going to be sold, you might infringe on the rights of an existing entity, but in reality there is no financial damage done. A game using a Chrono trigger castle chipset does not hurt sales of Chrono trigger. In fact, it may instill nostalgia in the player. "Hey, I remember this place..." and they might go after the original. This is, obviously, not ideal for the maker of the game using that art, because they have failed at creating an immersive experience because every few screens the player has flashbacks to the SNES days. But nobody is really harmed.

As long as the creator is honest and gives credit for the resources that are used in the project, I don't see it as an apocalyptic problem.

I like the idea of new blood coming in, using what they can find to make their debut game. Of course, they will probably get hammered for the whole thing. They react against this by improving, growing if you will.

This is from one of my old projects. My approach was to take my limitations and try to turn them into a style.


Here is another one, showing the replacement for the charas edits I was using in one of my games.


Kindly refrain from making the false assumption that I am saying that people should[/u] be content with using rips. I'm just saying it is wrong to write them off for doing so, and that there are aspects of creating a good game that are entirely more important than graphics.
Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 04:14:32 am by Killer Wolf
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Okay, so someone composes midi music, but they use a sound font that they did not create themselves. Is this the same thing? Someone downloads some drum loops and builds their song over that, is that the same thing? Anyone who used the alesis drum machine (hello 80's) to program the backbone of their beats is in the same boat?

no

i am too tired right now to explain this but jesus no this is not the same thing sorry
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btw hellion uses mostly graphics ripped/edited from Dragon quest so

Awww, ya got me.  What I did there was I assumed, which is my mistake.

I don't mind analogies as long as they actually say the same thing you're using them to explain, which most of the ones in this topic didn't.  Please share your food analogy.


edit: In fact I have one of my own:  most of the analogies in these threads were comparing apples to oranges.  Zing!

You keep saying these are all bad analogies.  Honestly, I thought most were pretty accurate, aside from the pie one.  Old food has an extra dimension of badness that old computer files don't.  If anything, a pie analogy should be comparing store-bought pie (not your original creation) to homemade pie (preferably by someone who isn't a super-great cook, because the whole discussion is irrelevant if you can have originality and good craftsmanship at the same time).  Any analogy that compares originality (that is of flawed quality) to something unoriginal of fine quality should be a good analogy (unless there's an extra dimension for why the logic would breakdown, i.e. 10-year-old pie has nothing to do with unoriginality, it's just dreadfully past its expiration date.  A pie that I've eaten numerous times in the last ten years would be more appropriate).
Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 04:34:15 am by Lackeos
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This is what people were doing in this topic:

"Rips are bad?  That's like saying [insert ][/insert]"

Rips are bad?  That's like saying they should be using c++!  Rips are bad?  That's like saying instruments are bad!
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