TOPIC OF THE WEEK 3 - Masochism in games

Topic: TOPIC OF THE WEEK 3 - Masochism in games (Read 2814 times)

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DS

#41 February 21, 2011, 07:16:49 pm

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i'm open to the idea. i believe there is a slight element of masochism in a lot of things we do, but i think that the word "masochism" is a bad way to describe it as it brings with it a certain mindset, but seems to be the most apt word i guess.

this is how i feel about it too. i mean people like to watch sad movies because they are sad and it contributes to the overall experience. same applies to books and games. i don't understand why it's so hard to admit you can actually enjoy this!! masochism is a very negative word though so i can understand why you wouldn't want to be associated with it but i can't really think of a better description right now.

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dicko

#42 February 21, 2011, 07:20:43 pm

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Quote from: DS-kukko on February 21, 2011, 07:16:49 pm

this is how i feel about it too. i mean people like to watch sad movies because they are sad and it contributes to the overall experience. same applies to books and games. i don't understand why it's so hard to admit you can actually enjoy this!! masochism is a very negative word though so i can understand why you wouldn't want to be associated with it but i can't really think of a better description right now.

yeah and with horror movies too! being scared and whatnot adds to the overall enjoyment. it doesnt make you a FREAK or an outright MASOCHIST, but there are definite "masochistic" tendencies!

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crone_lover720

#43 February 21, 2011, 07:40:25 pm

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Quote from: Faust on February 21, 2011, 12:37:48 pm

You're obviously not as erotic as I first assumed!

I don't like that it's considered such a large, almost overarching part of eroticism either but I guess that's just a byproduct of our awful society

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Ragnar

#44 February 21, 2011, 08:35:30 pm

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it probably is masochism but the hip marketing word is 'cathartic'

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dada

#45 February 21, 2011, 10:09:34 pm

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BREAKING MY VOW.

I am seriously disturbed by the fact that people are buying into this crazy, Sigmund Freud wannabe theory of MASOCHISTIC GAMES. It's like saying that I'm "slightly mentally retarded" because I don't get how binary trees work. The definitions of pain and masochism are apparently malleable to be whatever dom wants them to mean so that it fits his narrative.

READING A SAD BOOK = MASOCHISM!!!

Congratulations dom you have successfully thrown around BIG WORDS while stretching their definitions so far that they now mean nothing.

Quote from: earlchip on February 20, 2011, 10:47:24 pm

I hate talking about things in terms of masochism and sadism or domination and submission and I don't like that it's inaccurately applied to so many things. are we becoming an anime.

Yes.

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dicko

#46 February 21, 2011, 10:19:53 pm

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Quote from: Dada on February 21, 2011, 10:09:34 pm

BREAKING MY VOW.

I am seriously disturbed by the fact that people are buying into this crazy, Sigmund Freud wannabe theory of MASOCHISTIC GAMES. It's like saying that I'm "slightly mentally retarded" because I don't get how binary trees work. The definitions of pain and masochism are apparently malleable to be whatever dom wants them to mean so that it fits his narrative.

READING A SAD BOOK = MASOCHISM!!!

Congratulations dom you have successfully thrown around BIG WORDS while stretching their definitions so far that they now mean nothing.
Yes.

i don't understand why it's such a crazy thought. like i said, masochism isn't the best word perhaps, but it is not a completely unfeasible idea!

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dada

#47 February 21, 2011, 10:43:13 pm

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I don't want to debate this at length anymore but we went on about this on IRC and here's what I think:

[23:32] < Dada> masochism means exactly one thing: (usually sexual) enjoyment of being physically or psychologically punished. this explicitly states that the enjoyment is derived from the punishment itself, yet nobody in the world is playing mario just to run up to the first goomba and die on repeat
[23:33] < Warlin> True, but if they weren't willing to experience any amount of failure, they probably wouldn't have turned it on at all.
[23:34] < Dada> warlin again people don't play games because they want to fail. they play games DESPITE the fact that they MIGHT fail. the possibility of failure is instrumental to the enjoyment, but it is not the enjoyment itself. there's a massive difference
[23:35] < Dada> I think sad movies/books have more merit to the claim of masochism than video games but even then it's a stupid word to use. people watch sad movies because they seek an emotional attachment, something they can think about and empathize with.

What's happening here is we're taking one concept (such as enjoying an emotional attachment to a sad movie) and extending it far enough to be able to use a word for it that just isn't meant for its purpose (enjoying something sad is like enjoying psychological punishment, therefore enjoying a sad movie is masochistic).

It's like earlchip said. We've become an anime... everything is grotesque.

I'll admit though that things like sad movies make a better claim to this narrative than video games but neither fit the bill and it's still a ridiculous equation.

I see a lot of people saying "yeah it makes sense but masochism is a poor word choice". That's exactly right. It's not like anyone's denying you can enjoy difficult games or watch sad movies and love them. The problem is this is being falsely equated with a desire for physical or psychological punishment when it's really far more easily and concisely explained by e.g. the desire for emotional attachment or adrenaline.

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Ragnar

#48 February 21, 2011, 11:04:13 pm

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it's probably Hideo Kojima's fault we made that association

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Warlin

#49 February 21, 2011, 11:09:34 pm

I did ok on this one but his feet are kinda wierd!
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Well, the conclusion I've come to is that it's possible to contrive the argument enough to work, but if you have to force it to work, what's the point, right?

I guess, I mean, people do play games to experience challenges, but challenges aren't about experiencing pain, and the pleasure isn't derived from experiencing that pain, but rather being able to overcome it and beat the challenge. You can say that that's masochism in some way or another, but really, it's fuzzy and it doesn't really hold a lot of weight. Most people, and I say this as a general thing, won't play games exclusively to be punished. The idea that some people do isn't outlandish, but it's definitely not the general goal.

I'm probably just ~~reciprocating~~ repeating one of the points Dada is trying to make here, though. So I probably sound lame, but whatever.

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Ragnar

#50 February 21, 2011, 11:23:25 pm

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what about people who listen to Merzbow and stuff

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Hundley

#51 February 22, 2011, 01:04:17 am

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yeah, i'm not seeing this either. i can understand how some properties of the standard game experience are tangentially similar to masochism, i don't think the majority of people play games for that reason, which would kinda be a required factor for games to be labeled this way. you take out all sense of reward or accomplishment in a game and increase all PUNISHMENT in a game to some absurd degree, you're going to have a game on your hands that very few people fundamentally enjoy.

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Vellfire

#52 February 22, 2011, 01:09:06 am

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Quote from: Hundley on February 22, 2011, 01:04:17 am

i don't think the majority of people play games for that reason, which would kinda be a required factor for games to be labeled this way.

i think this is the biggest point in this debate. it's been made a few times but this is it in a nutshell.

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Warped655

#53 February 22, 2011, 01:18:23 am

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I'm on Dada's and Hundley's side here. People throw the term Masochism when it comes to game difficulty but it really is an inaccurate term. People want higher difficulty because it gives the victory more meaning. If you play a game that is won easily, it doesn't feel like much of an accomplishment. If you play a difficult game that many fail at or one that you had to struggle to defeat its much more satisfying.

The act of losing itself is still just as negative a feeling.

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Barack Obama

#54 February 22, 2011, 10:42:20 am

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i get this weird boner whenever i lose at megaman 3 but i love that gmea... idgi

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bonzi_buddy

#55 February 22, 2011, 11:38:06 am

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idgi.

aaaaaa i'm becoming a... RAGNAR. *nicholas cage in front of a mirror*

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Alec

#56 February 22, 2011, 12:34:49 pm

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People don't like losing in games they just like winning in games that other people lose at. Wants to feel better than other people, or at least better than the game.

Dieting and exercising isn't masochistic, but is often painful. Pretty much everything worth doing in life is painful. Is having a job a masochistic act?

dom it's good to see you never change

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Faust

#57 February 22, 2011, 04:52:45 pm

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People...like winning in games that other people lose at. Wants to feel better than other people, or at least better than the game.

This is certainly true. There's a rush that comes with triumphing over someone, in whatever form. I imagine it's as true in sports as it is in like MORTAL KOMBAT or whatever, but sadly I have no empirical data to base that on :<.

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