I think this is partly a case of the audience of something driving opinion of it more than the object itself. I know exactly the kind of self-congratulatory people that are being held in disdain here, and I don't like them either. They really are a killer for enthusiasm about The Wire because you can see one of the possible effects it can have and start to question what it is in the show that produces such distasteful responses.

I've watched the whole thing through probably 3 times I think. I watched it while it was on then two more times later on - not because I especially love it but I tend to recycle tv shows because there aren't always interesting ones on and I like to have things on while I am doing other stuff. Anyway, I think I know it as well as anybody, and it really has a lot of ups and downs. The opening scene earl mentioned, as he has before, is really pretty bad - it's just cheesey and glib, I don't like it. There are recurring bits like that throughout the show - usually at the start of an episode, as it tries to encapsulate the theme of the episode poetically but usually ends up being kind of embarrassing. Sometimes it couldn't be more heavy handed.

I don't think it's fair to just dismiss it though - if you like TV, then it does some things no other show does and some things that only a few do. Also, if you care about representation in the media then as TV series with a hugely varied cast of black actors in a media environment where you are still lucky to get 1 per product, then it's better it exists than doesn't. It also has a few things to say politically that are a lot less disgusting than the majority of TV - I watched it when I in my mid to late teens and it helped introduce institutional inequality to me as a concept. I was reading and watching other things, of course, but I know I picked a few things up from the show that helped me make sense of it all. If you're concerned about a noble savage stereotype, then at least the wire has dozens of other characters from the same cultural background that don't fit into that mould, even if a few of them do. It's lazy to dismiss the whole show as being an example of that problem, and it probably just means you haven't watched it lately or are annoyed at the college guys with a poster of Omar on their wall. Also, just because we happen to be acutely aware of that section of its fanbase and the potential for a self-congratulatory, privileged response to the show, doesn't mean that this is all there is to it and that these kinds of people are the only ones the wire is relevant to or was produced by (although I'm not bonkers about David Simon) - and saying that is a pretty smug backhand, too, because although it was adopted by a demographic of fuckers there are other demographics out there we just don't interact with so wouldn't know about.

It's a clumsy show with more good intentions than bad ones and critical/fan noise has warped the perception of it into something more nefarious than it really is. I'm wondering how much of the criticisms against it (i mean you don't see them often but) are to do with stuff like writing quality - which like I said can be really heavy-handed and make you roll your eyes - or some political issues than I'm not taking seriously enough. I mean obviously if you try and take this show as seriously as real life, you have problems, and I totally dismissed the idea of there ever being any possibility for realism in the media, or art, a while ago, so I don't look at it like it is showing me the real world (which I think is a misguided thrill some people get from it), but that it's creating a fictional space to discuss some problems in the real world that don't often get that space, and also there are some good characters and good storylines running through it.

Actually I want to stress that last part - I mean I like the way it operates in creating its world, its characters and storylines and that's really the main reason I think it's a decent show. It's political leanings aren't so much a reason to watch it, but the lack of a barrier to my enjoyment that is usually in the way when it comes to any kind of tv show or movie involving police and drugs. I'm finding it a bit harder to get to the core of this than I thought I would when I started this post, which I think is because the show is really expansive and I know I am forgetting bad bits as I write, but overall I think the scepticism towards institutions and the war on drugs along with its wideviewed approach to worldbuilding and intermittently good storylines/characters are what enabled me to have enjoyed it. I mean all real grown ups know not to pat themselves on the back for watching tv.

that's a good FoR to view the show. but even disregarding realism, I still think it's problematic in a number of ways you might/might not notice if, as I said previously, you're someone like me, or someone who has an even better vantage point. from my point of view I think you're dismissing the significance of its problems a little too readily.

also, having only bothered watching the first two seasons of the show (and the first season twice), I gotta say that, at least in those seasons, the show is really defined by the noble savage, and this pervasive sort of white ivory tower caricature that is at least a little offensive. I think the characters that play noble savage have too important a role in the series & too pervasive an effect on events to simply be surgically removed.

you are right that part of my disdain comes from how the show is praised for what I see as unremarkable or phony attributes. I don't have an opinion on TV or video as a medium like you do jaime, so I don't really understand any inherent value in the stuff it does right. another difference is that I already had a really good understanding of the things you described by the time I watched the show, so the only thing that stood out to me was what they were doing wrong/how they were pushing it without taking it all the way or doing anything new. I guess that doesn't have to be a requirement for TV, or anything, but combined with the small "pat on the back" crowd and everything else = dumpy show, don't watch unless you wanna


hey bampaquorn welcome, youll fit right in

i'm not really comfortable with being a the wire defender because I'm sure you are right that I'm minimising its problems because my idea of what they are exactly is a bit hazy at the moment (haven't watched/thought about it in a while),  or maybe i just didn't pick up on them all! and i know some of the stuff this series covers is actually your area so you probably know better, i just wanted to point out some of the upsides to it and also the other things about the fanbase being gross doesn't = gross thing necessarily, and also the thing about looking at this kind of stuff ignoring the concept of 'realism' because its an impossible standard for something like a tv show (although that isn't really in response to you)

i guess i'm somewhere in between for and against admitting some ignorance to what its problems are specifically

good convo btw but welcome bamcquern, a cool humanist with amazing superpowers... superman rushes into phone booth, comes out as CLARK KENT, shoots lazer beams from glasses aaaa sorry for a (exceptionally really) bad joke but wif' me bein' a-rounda... get usd 2 it >:^B

here's some Thought on education

Our present method of conducting examinations is a method for dealing with the enemy, not a method for dealing with the people. It is a method of surprise attack, asking oblique or strange questions. This is still the same method as the old eight-legged essay. I do not approve of this. It should be changed completely. I am in favor of publishing the questions in advance and letting the students study them and answer them with the aid of books. For instance, if one sets twenty questions on the Dream of the Red Chamber, and some students answer half of them and answer them well, and some of the answers are very good and contain creative ideas, then one can give them 100 per cent. If some other students answer all twenty questions and answer them correctly, but answer them simply by reciting from their textbooks and lectures, without any creative ideas, they should be given 50 or 60 per cent. At examinations whispering into each other’s ears and taking other people’s places ought to be allowed. If your answer is good and I copy it, then mine should be counted as good. Whispering in other people’s ears and taking examinations in other people’s names used to be done secretly. Let it now be done openly. If I can’t do something and you write down the answer, which I then copy, this is all right. Let’s give it a try. We must do things in a lively fashion, not in a lifeless fashion. There are teachers who ramble on and on when they lecture; they should let their students doze off. If your lecture is no good, why insist on others listening to you? Rather than keeping your eyes open and listening to boring lectures, it is better to get some refreshing sleep. You don’t have to listen to nonsense, you can rest your brain instead…

here's some Thought on education

lol
he has a point but also the implications of this in technical fields of study are not that great. idk if i'd want a surgeon operating on me who got thru med school copying off of his homie's papers and labs

there's a sorta cavalier attitude toward academic integrity/plagiarism in china that's pretty funny and kinda charming; a friend of mine got a job for a few hundred bucks writing a paper for some professor to publish as his own. there's also tensions between china and the WTO with respect to intellectual property which is largely disregarded over there as a manifestation of this with blatant knockoff brands/stores everywhere. I saw several faux-apple store over there that had a bunch of imacs booted into pirated copies of windows on display and walked thru this clothing store that was entirely filled with fake high-fashion brand clothing and accessories, it was pretty funny.

i knew that was true of premed undergrads  but didnt think you could really get away with it in the 'big leagues', but i guess that's not the case... i always had a mystified vision of medschool because that whole dept was sorta set apart from the rest of the campus at my school & it was all serious business over there

5. care about democracy

*makes loud fart noises*