Religion Is anyone here an ex-atheist? (Read 2945 times)

  • Avatar of Warped655
  • Scanner
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Member
  • Joined: Mar 25, 2004
  • Posts: 2416
Are you suggesting that capitalism isn't materialistic? As for religion's relationship with capitalism, at best capitalism would embrace it for its profit potential and nothing more.
 
 
Quote
Well, yeah. If the Universe is there, it is because something made it possible, i.e: God. If there is no God, then the Universe makes itself possible; it is a materialistic version of God. I'm accepting the premise that something that transcends reality created reality, and I'm choosing to be part of the christian "group", even though I wouldn't subscribe to a literal interpretation of the Holy Bible. This isn't a black or white issue. You can agree with only 1% of christianity and still be part of the "group", and you could agree with 99% of it and not be a part of it.
 
Where's god come from? but yeah, there is no inherent logic in assuming that the universe was created by some being vs just is and/or always was or perhaps just spontaneously came into being due to an accident. Arguably, if you were to try and take the most logical route, you'd accept that WE DON'T KNOW (as far as practical 'knowing' goes) and probably never will rather than just believing god does or doesn't exist. You could perhaps sway in one direction or another when it comes to probabilities though.
 
In fact, the concept of 'god' is so arguably unknowable that even if it appeared that you had proof of his/her/it's existence or non-existence staring you in the face you could still never be truly sure if you were seeing something real or perhaps a hallucination or fever dream.
 
There are a myriad of other issues with believing in a god (and to a lesser degree, being sure of no god), but this one seems most cut to the point.
Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 11:55:49 pm by Warped655
  • Avatar of gentileCheerios
  • Banned
  • Group: Member
  • Joined: Jul 22, 2013
  • Posts: 16
Communism's philosophical bases are materialistic, as you can see here:
 
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1908/mec/one4.htm#v14pp72h-075
 
It all started with Marx's upside-down interpretation of Hegel and of metaphysics, but the point is that matter itself plays the role of the divine.
 
Capitalism isn't an ideology, a religion, a movement or anything, is just the way by which humanity sustains itself through economic activity that consists in accumulation of capital. For example, even a "socialist" --in proudhounian terminology-- economy with no private property would be capitalistic since there is capital (means of production) and it is accumulated over time (you develop technology to further develop technology with the goal of increasing material comfort).
 
A God that existed before the timespace and matter existed is the ultimate cause, the cause without a cause, so it didn't "come from" anything, but that also makes it inconceivable, it transcends reality and, in christian narrative, only becomes immanent when Jesus is born. It's a premise; you can either accept it to be true without any "proof" (you have faith in it) or deny it, also without any proof, but by doing that, by negating something that precedes matter you're merely stating that matter is the ultimate cause and you already know what that means.
  • Avatar of EvilDemonCreature
  • i don't like change
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Jul 5, 2002
  • Posts: 1453
I base the nature of my faith by starting with the assumption that God exists, and then trying to use my limited knowledge of the reality shaped by him to infer what little I can about the nature of what such a being would want based on thinking that reality itself is an outcome of God's will to fulfill such desire.
 
If it is truly God's wish to be worshipped by those who resulted from this creative act, then the lack of unity and surplus of strife that results from our limited grasp of what nature or form such worship should take, makes it evident that some aspects of the Christian image of what I can only call "God's personality" are faulty and self-conflicting. I think the very notion of a force that by its nature operates outside of reality itself even having something akin to "personality" is very demeaning and biased to our own outlooks on the nature of the abstract concept we personally identify as "understanding".
 
If God had a careful plan in defining the very nature of reality and how it unfolds through our own biased perception of time, (to the point that we can say that our very own abilities to apply reason and logic are likely divine gifts delivered directly from this creator) then by using the logic God granted our species, we can infer through observation that for God to have a personality, it must be that this personality has no desire to dictate the nature of it's will to those it caused to exist. Any claims to the contrary can always be sourced to a being that is deeply rooted in reality itself.
 
Speculation on the nature of God or divinity is fine, as long as we are willing to acknowledge our own existence's limitations as biases that will always conceal true understanding. But to speculate on how to execute the will of such a being, might as well be tantamount to blasphemy. Any time I hear a person say "God's will", my conscious brain will always translate this phrase to "I know more about what God wants than God does". Even by taking at face value those stories involving God's heralds coming to earth to deliver His word to mankind directly, even those words straight from the Angel's mouth lose every last shred of credibility, in terms of being from a truly divine source, the very instant they entered a human ear.
 
 

Basically, the very notion of religion itself is the negation of the assumption that the nature of God's fundamental existence, and the nature of reality itself are entirely separate from each other. Yes God himself is an existence that precedes matter, but for religion to actually exist, we rely on the hidden assumption that some pieces (or configurations) of matter are more intricately connected to God's own divinity, than other pieces of matter in some other shape. The easiest example I can think of is matter in the shape of printed text taking words from The Holy Bible, being of a form that qualifies as more "interconnected with divinity" than matter in the shape of printed text re-creating words of the Koran. 
 
If we take the word "Atheist" entirely literally, it actually does not require not believing in God, at least not how you define it. Atheists probably disagree with me, but I do not see their fundamental stance as "God does not exist". At face value, It's alot like saying quaggleplorphs don't exist. Saying something doesn't exist when it is literally impossible to know what it is, by definition has absolutely no implications whatsoever. I tend to interpret the statement "God does not exist" as something more along the lines of "I view the concepts of "God" and "existence" as entirely separate and in no way connected". If God is not connected to existence itself in any way whatsoever, but still created all of existence while remaining entirely separate from it, then the question of whether or not to believe in him is a moot point.
Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 12:57:55 am by EvilDemonCreature
  • Avatar of denzquix
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Member
  • Joined: Aug 22, 2012
  • Posts: 630
my god awards points for freakin the normies
  • Avatar of dada
  • VILLAIN
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Administrator
  • Joined: Dec 27, 2002
  • Posts: 5538
Well, it is true that countries with a catholic tradition tend to be shitholes in general, see Mexico and most of Latin America, but it's a different story with countries with protestant tradition, which are usually the more progressive and gay loving countries in the world, such as Sweden, where even gender itself is seen as nothing more than a social construct.
gender is still very far from being seen as being just a social construct in Sweden.

since you've ignored everything else I've said, I'm guessing you now agree with me that it was all nonsense and that such a correlation does not exist.
  • Avatar of dada
  • VILLAIN
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Administrator
  • Joined: Dec 27, 2002
  • Posts: 5538
everything else you've said since then is also patent nonsense btw.
you're basically just making everything up and vaguely linking them together with selective historical data.
  • Avatar of dada
  • VILLAIN
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Administrator
  • Joined: Dec 27, 2002
  • Posts: 5538
like you say "[an] economy with no private property would be capitalistic since there is capital (means of production)" which is not even worth responding to [[but ][/[but]]. you don't even understand the meanings of the terms you're using. whether means of production exist (they always exist) doesn't determine whether a society is capitalist or not.
Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 09:17:28 am by dada
  • Avatar of bonzi_buddy
  • Kaiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Apr 15, 2005
  • Posts: 1998
i mean maybe the topic is not a dialogue but a monologue? maybe we're supposed to post our wack-ass crystal prison beliefs in monologue and not listen everyone (it's close... dumb topic whistles and eyeballs elsewhere)? austerness or autistisms... i wonder if there is a trialogue? man i'm starving, jesus i'm actually starving, what a nice feeling to feel after like FOREVER.
Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 01:15:16 pm by bonzi_buddy
  • Avatar of dada
  • VILLAIN
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Administrator
  • Joined: Dec 27, 2002
  • Posts: 5538
it was obvious from the start that this would happen (but w/e)
  • Avatar of gentileCheerios
  • Banned
  • Group: Member
  • Joined: Jul 22, 2013
  • Posts: 16
like you say "[an] economy with no private property would be capitalistic since there is capital (means of production)" which is not even worth responding to [[but im stupid i will respond anyway]]. you don't even understand the meanings of the terms you're using. whether means of production exist (they always exist) doesn't determine whether a society is capitalist or not.
 
What is your antithesis, Dada?
  • Avatar of Ragnar
  • Worthless Protoplasm
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Jun 15, 2002
  • Posts: 6536
dumbtopic made me an ex-atheist
http://djsaint-hubert.bandcamp.com/
 
  • Avatar of EvilDemonCreature
  • i don't like change
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Jul 5, 2002
  • Posts: 1453
The ultimate irony of this topic is that the discussion itself could easily be interpreted as proof that God does not exist, since a kind and loving God would never let someone believe in him purely based on such faulty premises.
 
Oh no, now it's who doesn't understand the meaning of terms I'm using! Quick, everybody run! It's SPREADING!
Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 05:36:04 pm by EvilDemonCreature
  • Avatar of gentileCheerios
  • Banned
  • Group: Member
  • Joined: Jul 22, 2013
  • Posts: 16
The ultimate irony of this topic is that the discussion itself could easily be interpreted as proof that God does not exist, since a kind and loving God would never let someone believe in him purely based on such faulty premises.
 
Oh no, now it's who doesn't understand the meaning of terms I'm using! Quick, everybody run! It's SPREADING!
 
This is hardly a new discussion (check Augustine of Hippo).
 
Not that it is any related to that point, but the thing about atheism that bugged the most is that it is almost always presented as something "modern", in opposition to Christianity, which was around during the middle ages which were so backwards, all while ignoring the contributions scholastics made to philosophy and science in general, when the entire debate about the existence or not  of God is probably as old as humanity itself.
  • Avatar of EvilDemonCreature
  • i don't like change
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Jul 5, 2002
  • Posts: 1453
They only think of it like that because they view the world of modern scientific achievement as something that is continuing to make their case of God being absent for them. They see God not as something that fully encompasses that which is truly unknowable about the nature of reality, but rather as a go-to excuse to fill in the blanks for literally any phenomena that does not already have an explanation rooted in reality. Even if they did see God as the full embodiment of that which is impossible to know, the state of what is possible to know and that which is impossible to know is still always in a constant state of flux. All thanks to the consistent and reliable advancement of scientific thought, that has probably been going on for just as long as the entire debate about the existence of God.
 
My problem with the very nature of the debate is that it is impossible to really have a consensus on what "God" actually means. Yes you can give definitions, but they are all rooted in our understanding of reality, so none of those explanations can ever be proven or dis-proven for the context that's both within our universe and separate from it. You can have an atheist argue God does not exist, and a theist argue God does exist, and they could be talking about two entirely different things! They both see it as the exact same concept simply because there is not a better word to assign to their own personal understanding of what it is they are even trying to argue over!
Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 06:44:00 am by EvilDemonCreature
  • Avatar of gentileCheerios
  • Banned
  • Group: Member
  • Joined: Jul 22, 2013
  • Posts: 16
That second paragraph is actually a good point. Without agreeing on definitions, they could both believe in the very same thing but using different names for it. Rejecting the existence of a flying bearded old man ghost is as easy as rejecting the possibility of a flying spaghetti monster or a unicorn, it requires no further metaphysical investigation, just as accepting either of those creatures to fill the gaps requires no further empiric testing. It is true that our definitions are based on our own understanding of reality; every definition requires a prior definition, in order to define anything at all you must accept the principle that something is identical to itself and nothing else, which is a statement that can't actually be proven. You merely accept it as a self-evident truth, a valid premise that requires no further proof, and base your subsequent reasoning on it. And it happens to be adequate enough that the entire scientific knowledge bases itself on it.
 
In the end we're simply stuck with having to deal with something that is completely out of our comprehension. There is no way around it.
  • Avatar of dada
  • VILLAIN
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Administrator
  • Joined: Dec 27, 2002
  • Posts: 5538
like you say "[an] economy with no private property would be capitalistic since there is capital (means of production)" which is not even worth responding to [[but im stupid i will respond anyway]]. you don't even understand the meanings of the terms you're using. whether means of production exist (they always exist) doesn't determine whether a society is capitalist or not.
 
What is your antithesis, Dada?
 

:|
  • Avatar of dada
  • VILLAIN
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Administrator
  • Joined: Dec 27, 2002
  • Posts: 5538
it's interesting to see christians who state that their religion is just a way of explaining the unexplainable, the regions that simply do not exist in the domain of science or rational inquiry, which I think is true, but then turn around and try to somehow introduce their faith into precisely those domains. it's having your cake and eating it too. when you step inside those domains, you lose that claim to innocence.
  • Avatar of gentileCheerios
  • Banned
  • Group: Member
  • Joined: Jul 22, 2013
  • Posts: 16
It's interesting to see atheists believing in stuff that can't be proven either, and yet feel morally superior, as if you had science on your side, and everyone else didn't.  I was once in that position, I know what it is like.
 
Newsflash: Christianity does not nullify empirical testing, and empirical testing doesn't nullify the need for metaphysics.
  • Avatar of EvilDemonCreature
  • i don't like change
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Jul 5, 2002
  • Posts: 1453
There really is no objectionable "need" for metaphysics. It's all philosophical drivel that only serves to satisfy the collective ego of our entire species. (Unless you are one of those people who assume that Ethics cannot even exist without Metaphysics to justify it, but I tend to view people who think like that as self-serving asshats who need nothing short of divine intervention just to treat a fellow organism like its something even worth being treated with respect)
 
Empirical testing on the other hand, has led to practically every advancement you could imagine needing for living in a society you'd actually want to live in. That doesn't mean empirical testing can do anything for the realm of metaphysics, nor does it mean it is going to simply make the concept of metaphysics outdated in of itself.
 
I'm not saying this as an atheist, just as an agnostic who bases his beliefs almost entirely on what is both rational and practical. People are totally free to disagree with me, but I personally see Metaphysics as something people will always want, while Empirical Testing is going to be something people will always need.
Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 06:04:15 pm by EvilDemonCreature
  • Avatar of gentileCheerios
  • Banned
  • Group: Member
  • Joined: Jul 22, 2013
  • Posts: 16
An ape can empirically learn that poking a termite hill with a stick is a way to obtain edible termites, but can it speculate about what lies beyond the physical realm he inhabits? I don't know, but humans do that automatically.
 
People paved the roads for discoveries in physics with philosophical drivel. Kant in his own way anticipated General Relativity. Science is not a novelty invention that makes philosophy obsolete, it's built on it.