ok fine! you don't wave your arms around that much! the wii has still shown zero capacity for legitimate creativity, and it's been a year.

Actually, the Wii has more creative potential than any other console if you think about it. It has a classic controller set up like other consoles do, plus motion sensing, which the others don't. I agree that this potential hasn't been achieved, but it does have more potential than any of the current next gen. consoles.

It's possible to make a serious game on the Wii since you aren't required to use the nunchuk/wii-mote combo. They have the classic controller and the GC controller. Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn is a fine example of my point.

However, I do agree with you that the list of games for the Wii is weak compared to other consoles, and it's been annoying me as well. I was hoping SMG would be amazing, but it was much weaker than SM64 in terms of difficulty which turned me off a lot. Hopefully third party developers will start making games on the Wii after seeing how well the console has been selling.

But yeah, I don't have the cash to buy a game every month (nor the time to play them) so if a good game comes out on the Wii every now and again, I'm satisfied. Honestly, I'm not looking forward to much other than FF Crystal Chronicles and SSBB.

so did communism

but when you get absolute fucking losers like josef stalin and shigeru miyamoto in charge, even the greatest ideas can fail completely

Good job quoting my post out of context. Maybe if you read/quote the whole thing, you would see that you and I are pretty much on the same page, except you think that it has zero potential and I don't.

Actually, I don't recall it being a necessity to integrate motion control in order to put the game on Wii. It's probably an ideal choice by publishers to do so because it helps emphasize the differences between games or what makes this particular game on Wii "special" because it controls differently.  As I mentioned before, Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn actually has no motion control whatsoever and even allows the option for other control types such as the GCN or Classic Controller.  There at least a few other third party games that at least offer the option beyond motion control as well; I know Guilty Gear: Accent Core is one of them if I recall correctly.

The thing is, it's not exactly a necessity but no doubt encouraged because the "new way to play" is a big draw for the system.  It's definitely something I want to see emphasized even more than we're seeing now because there are some games on Wii that, IMO, controly a heck of a lot better with certain aspects of its motion control implementation than anything I've ever gotten out of an analog stick or two by the same premise.

Regarding storytelling though, even if motion control were required nothing really jumps out and says that a game driven on its story couldn't be created on Wii especially if aspects where controls are concerned are held exclusively from any area where the story might progress just a bit further.  There aren't many RPGs out there where the story is being progressed during some integral moment of gameplay, otherwise it would be distracting.  Would Wii remote gameplay simply then make things even more distracting because you're actually attempting to perform a parry instead of pressing the "A" button and watching a cutscene unfold?  Both actions would yield the same result and you would still get the same flow of action.  As mentioned before, you don't have to act like a retard to play Wii games - although it's no fun to sit down and play WiiSports, IMO, I can certainly do that, although I prefer to stand up where it's convenient.  But I don't exactly feel the need to act similarly when playing Metroid, Godfather or Bleach or something. (and that last one, Bleach, true wagglefest right there)

But you youself said it all with the last line in your paragraph, it's up to the designer to develop a system where the controls serve the game, not the other way around.  Seeing how similar experiences from the likes of S-E and Namco with FF:CC and Tales respectively aren't exactly becoming wagglefests and sacrificing the core of the game as a result, it's definitely doable and if the manufacturer can do it, along with a handful of ambitious third party publishers, there is no reason why any developer couldn't design a game to be more than a wagglefest with a simple rewards scheme.

I'd like to hear your definition of innovation, Hundley. Since it clearly doesn't involve revitalizing a flagging game market, redefining the way games are perceived, capturing markets that games have historically never been able to get ahold of, or changing at a basic level the way people interact with games. What is this "real innovation" that you hold in such regard?

I mean when you're talking real innovation, do you really just mean something that takes another step down the path that games were already on? Like "Mario 64 was innovative because it provided what would become the template for the nascent 3D-platformer genre" rather than "Wii Sports was innovative because it created an experience that had never really been successfully done before and managed to appeal to people who never thought of themselves as gamers, and make a type of game that had never been successful before (lol, minigames) not only profitable, but well-regarded as well?" Or does the second one not count because it's not your kind of game?

Or is innovation only real innovation when you can feel like you're better than other people because you spotted it sooner than they did? Like it can't be real innovation if just anyone can spot it. What's the point of innovation if the unwashed masses can appeciate it as much as their cultural betters?

YES! EXACTLY  And the people who have the money and resources to make a game that DOESN'T work with a convoluted control scheme are much better off having their games on a console that features better hardware.  Why strip away the very fundamental purpose of a game on the Wii (i.e. the Wiimote) when I could just make it (and make it BETTER) on any console OTHER than the Wii?

...install base?

they probably just didn't stock them dude.

Ah, I apologize--you said "legitimate creativity" not "real innovation." I don't see the difference in terms of this conversation, but whatever. I admit that I should've been more careful with my quotes if I was going to paraphrase you instead of directly quoting you, but considering how fast the thread was moving at the time, I didn't want to have to track back to your post after all the others had been posted.

ok fine! you don't wave your arms around that much! the wii has still shown zero capacity for legitimate creativity, and it's been a year.

Emphasis mine.

Find/Replace "innovative"/"creative" in previous post; compile; run;

actually no, we aren't on the same page. i don't believe that wii technology adds anything more to the effectiveness of videogames than, say, the xbox360 does. if i was a pro i'd much, much, MUCH rather have the technical capabilities of xbox360 and the ps3 at my disposal, given how vastly superior the games look and feel. you can compare bioshock to ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING the wii has made or will ever make for an in-depth analysis of this. i don't really see how the wii adds anything more than superficial arcade elements to videogames.

You don't have the best reading comprehension, do you?

Okay...so let's see here...I said we're on the same page except for our different views on Nintendo's creative potential. I believe the controller adds to its creative potential and you do not. Alright, so we got that down.

So where are we on the same page then? Well if you happened to read what I was saying in the post you misquoted, you would have seen that I agree with you about the weak selection of games for the Wii.

Therefore, you and I are on the same page, except that we have different views on the Wii's controllers, their contribution to the creative potential of the console, and the Wii's overall creative potential, which is exactly what I said here:

you and I are pretty much on the same page, except you think that it (the Wii) has zero potential and I don't.

ps how does that make you on the same page at all?


heh yea you and I are basically on the same page here, except you seem to disagree with hitler's methods whereas I don't think he went far enough *PART AMICABLY*


if you disagree SO COMPLETELY on the basic subject of the argument (merit of the wii as a console) then no, sorry, you are not on the same page.

also you know there has been a distinct lack of grossly inappropriate hitler/nazi analogies in the videogame forum in the past few years and it saddens me

YES! EXACTLY  And the people who have the money and resources to make a game that DOESN'T work with a convoluted control scheme are much better off having their games on a console that features better hardware.  Why strip away the very fundamental purpose of a game on the Wii (i.e. the Wiimote) when I could just make it (and make it BETTER) on any console OTHER than the Wii?

See?  The Wii has no value.  There's nothing happening for it down the road other than Bully: Schoolyard Edition (this is a real upcoming game by the way).  Once the get past Nintendo's AAA titles and the slew of Nick Jr/Hannah Montana titles you'll realize that every developer worth his salt is developing on the PS3 and Xbox 360.

But that's the thing, exactly what games out there wouldn't exactly work with the Wii remote?  My experience isn't as extensive as many people here as I only own one of the next gen consoles, but in what I've played, barring differences as a result of the technology gap between Wii and those other systems, there really isn't nothing out there I can point to and say "this couldn't be done on Wii because the controller would hinder it", one, because the game can be adapted to work with the controller (hence Godfather: BHE which used far more buttons in earlier versions than the Wii remote/nunchaku has, but EA reworked the game to run very much the same way while still using that very controller and tossing in some enhancements on top of that, IR control, gesture work).  Two, they don't have to rely entirely on the Wii remote, which thus far (and I mentioned earlier on) would not be ideal for fighters even though there are fighters on the system that have manged to work with it as well.  There is no need to strip away the Wii remote unless there is a need to, otherwise there are other options available, options that Nintendo AND other developers have utilized in at least a few games that don't rely heavily on motion control or use of the IR sensors.

There certainly is value in developing for Wii but developers need to work with what they have in front of them versus just giving up because they have to contend with a new controller structure.  I mean, should EA give up PS3 development because they've yet to nail down their technical issues in developing on that platform versus the 360 despite the games being the exact same?  Should Rockstar have given up on the PS3 version of GTA IV because of the issues they've had to contend with during development?  The PS3 apparently isn't the easiest platform to develop for, but developers have either released their titles despite technical issues or have reported on working around what bottlenecks are making development more difficult for that console versus the 360. Saying there is no value in development because developers have to contend with a convoluted system would be nothing more than a lazy answer from any developer in which case the 360 might as well be the only and primary SKU that they develop for in the first place considering experience in overcoming such obstacles before PS3/Wii even hit the market.  Obviously, there is some legitimate claim to development on Wii if developers continue to sign on which is probably due to its rapidly growing install base, as Shadowtext mentioned.

Which brings us full circle in this argument.

Nintendo is a company that thrives off mass marketing and the development of the cheapest product possible, not intelligent design.  Zelda, Mario, and Pokemon will always sell BECAUSE they are Zelda, Mario, and Pokemon.

Hell, their whole "anti-DVD nonconformist we use cartridges while everyone else uses cd's" policies should be reason enough to support this.

I dunno about that, although the Wii isn't much more powerful than the GCN the orientation of the console is certainly quite a bit more involved than the GCN ever was and the implementation of the Wii remote (while a risk) wasn't exactly a shot in the dark either.  Nintendo is definitely a profit driven company, but at least with Wii they definitely have the install base and and impending growth potential to support more ambitious projects on the console than what we've seen thus far and what is up and coming.  Much like the DS, Wii definitely had a rather slow "warm up" period for many publishers who didn't seem willing to commit until the system caught on fire as it did causing quite a few publishers (like EA, Capcom, Sega, Square Enix, etc.) to re-allocate resources to foster further Wii development.  However, provided the projects they're working on and time in which they pledged further support they definitely missed out on a window of opportunity to flourish during a time where Nintendo releases were pretty bare such as Q1 and Q2 of 2007.

But that definitely leaves some period of 2008 and onward for the projects to appear which is why it's not very surprising that most major japanese support for Wii involves projects that won't be seen until spring of this year and throughout 2008 barring delays among other things.  The biggest problem for Wii if anything I'd say has a lot to do with western support which still hasn't really been as convincing on Wii save for the largest publishers who can afford a major promotion like a multiplat. release where the Wii version might get some special treatment in development let alone a Wii oriented release all its own.

@ UPRC

Least popular console, but still with access to an insanely popular game and Activision being open about shortages through the holidays didn't help much.  With the holiday rush over maybe you'll get lucky one of these days?