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headphonics

#1661 June 14, 2008, 09:24:55 am

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do bm hunters still have a huge 1v1 advantage against rogues or no

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esp

#1662 June 14, 2008, 09:35:22 am

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not if its a rogue with half a brain.

yes you can hurt them a lot in that 18 seconds of TBW but, any decent rogue would sprint away and vanish, wait for BW/TBW to wear out (if you didn't flare them out, any good rogue will avoid it), and they'll just start their stun sequence over again. or get trapped, you get some shots off and BOOM shadowstep'd.

as bm its a lot easier but you still can't beat them 1v1. as mm its hell.

Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 09:47:25 am by esp

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#1663 June 14, 2008, 09:52:14 am

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there is basically no good class vs rogues atm.

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headphonics

#1664 June 14, 2008, 10:07:23 am

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Quote from: esp on June 14, 2008, 09:35:22 am

not if its a rogue with half a brain.

yes you can hurt them a lot in that 18 seconds of TBW but, any decent rogue would sprint away and vanish, wait for BW/TBW to wear out (if you didn't flare them out, any good rogue will avoid it), and they'll just start their stun sequence over again. or get trapped, you get some shots off and BOOM shadowstep'd.

as bm its a lot easier but you still can't beat them 1v1. as mm its hell.

what? no what you've gotta do is drop the flare before you pop beast within and then put like SERPENT STING on them or some shit and get your pet on them. at that point the rogue will have to sprint away and vanish but he'll have to pop clos to get rid of serpent sting aaaand with your pet on him and the general unreliability of vanish, and the haziness of how it works with pets, there's actually an overwhelming chance it will bring him out of stealth, and there's not really anything you as a rogue can do about it since the pet can't be cc'd, so you can't even gouge and vanish.

also it's not especially difficult to catch one in stealth with a flare. even with sprint you can't move especially quickly and you stand a pretty good chance of getting him just from firing it in some random area that was relatively close to where he vanished.

idk i never played 20/0/41 because shadowstep still blew when i was playing my rogue but it sounds like you aren't playing it the right way at all if you think it ends at NAH HE JUST RUNS AWAY AND WAITS

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#1665 June 14, 2008, 12:01:18 pm

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Quote from: headphonics on June 14, 2008, 10:07:23 am

what? no what you've gotta do is drop the flare before you pop beast within and then put like SERPENT STING on them or some shit and get your pet on them. at that point the rogue will have to sprint away and vanish but he'll have to pop clos to get rid of serpent sting aaaand with your pet on him and the general unreliability of vanish, and the haziness of how it works with pets, there's actually an overwhelming chance it will bring him out of stealth, and there's not really anything you as a rogue can do about it since the pet can't be cc'd, so you can't even gouge and vanish.

also it's not especially difficult to catch one in stealth with a flare. even with sprint you can't move especially quickly and you stand a pretty good chance of getting him just from firing it in some random area that was relatively close to where he vanished.

pet unstealthing is fairly unreliable, plus if the pet does unstealth him can't he just do prep/re-vanish? (not sure if that stops the pet following). flare is a great tool but it is on a 20 second cooldown so if you don't catch them in that one flare (and good rogues i've met don't move while vanished in a PREDICTABLE fashion, so you gotta be lightning quick on your flare button) they're free to open up a stunlock on you again. hunters are particularly fucked in arena since flare doesn't GO ROUND pillars.

basically when TBW is active yeah it's a godsend against the rogue since you can actually get some damage in and not get stunned/slowed all the time, but the fact that rogues have so many cooldowns and when they run out they can just PREPARATION and do it all again means it won't really get you anywhere. they have too much survivability so it's not always possible to bring them down to a level where, once TBW is over, you have a good chance of killing them.

aside from shadowstep, there's deadly throw, evasion which means wing clip will fail 9 times out of 10, clos for frost trap, my concussive shot is a 4 second slowing ability compared to a rogue's slows, which are 70% and continuously reapplied if they're hitting you at all, and let's not forget cheat death, which is bugged as fuck, so if they are CLOSE TO DEATH they can still fucking mash you up pretty badly or some kind healer can burn a big heal on them and THAT is fucking frustrating.

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idk i never played 20/0/41 because shadowstep still blew when i was playing my rogue but it sounds like you aren't playing it the right way at all if you think it ends at NAH HE JUST RUNS AWAY AND WAITS

well, now, shadowstep is just overpowered imo. i've watched mark duel a lot of rogues on his frost mage (he is a good mage) and it's just unbelievable that mage, a class with such escape mechanisms that used to beat rogues reasonably well before now just gets ANTI-KITED by a rogue. basically classes that rely on kiting, apart from possibly non-feral druids (ferals can actually do pretty good against them), don't really have much of a chance against a rogue anymore.

i don't know maybe i'm just a BAD HUNTER.

Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 12:13:04 pm by esp

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#1666 June 14, 2008, 02:40:34 pm

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Yeah even BM hunters have a less than equal chance against equal skilled and geared sub rogues now

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#1667 June 14, 2008, 02:47:26 pm

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Quote from: handsome lamb on June 14, 2008, 09:52:14 am

there is basically no good class vs rogues atm.

The usual rogue answer to this is SHUT UP THERE'S RESTO SHAMANS AND PROT PALADINS

what?

First, resto shamans, they're healers. The way the game's designed, you are not meant to be able to kill healers 1v1 so I guess rogues are admitting to being able to kill holy paladins, resto druids and disc priests which they shouldn't be able to?

And second prot paladins, I don't believe that for a second because even though a prot paladin COULD kill a rogue 1v1, there's no rogue in the world who's going to stick around long enough to get white hit for 100 over and over till they're dead. Also the last time I saw a prot paladin even in a battleground let alone arena was like 4 months ago so heh

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headphonics

#1668 June 14, 2008, 07:16:20 pm

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Quote

pet unstealthing is fairly unreliable

it didn't used to be! i guess this is bad news for you but i'm glad they did SOMETHING to vanish so that it wasn't 90% unreliable if anything like that was attacking you.

also uh, what about you know... non-sub rogues? i know shadowstep is the BIG SPEC but that can't be all you face, and it sounds like they're the only ones you're talking about! actually i could see shadowstep (and prep but i always got annoyed using prep in 1v1) making the match SUBSTANTIALLY EASIER in conjunction with vanish working but time was....... when i'd be combat or mutilate and couldn't reliably vanish it was a very rough match against any good bm hunter. also the idea isn't that the rogue is being predictable while vanishing, but that his stealth speed, even with sprint, dictates that there are a limited amount of places he can be 3 seconds after vanishing, when your flare goes down. you have a pretty decent chance of guessing right, however unpredictable he is.

but man it's funny to hear that frost mages are easy to beat! i stood a pretty good chance against a good frost mage but it was tricky and it could go south if i didn't have a full set of cooldowns and if i really wanted to win i'd usually use a grenade, but it seems odd they'd switch up the dynamics now! it's also weird because i remember being able to beat the shit out of most shaman and prot pallies just... very slowly, and usually as combat. it's crazy that those are the healers that would be able to beat us, and yet miraculously we can kill resto druids now, because they used to be just about the only healer i couldn't reliably kill in any small amount of time unless they just weren't very good.

idk man it's a pvp tree that always excelled in 1v1 combat. i guess it is GOOD IN ARENA now too and that is kind of new but the 1v1 combat and general survivability was always the big thing about sub!

Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 07:17:59 pm by headphonics

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#1669 June 14, 2008, 07:18:39 pm

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no melee can kill prot paladins so rogue should shut the fuck up about that one, they can hardly call it UNFAIR

and rogues can take down a resto shaman 1v1 if they played their cards right especially with new deadly throw (which is absolutely retarded "hi lets give rogues an instant ranged attack that slows AND interrupts and can also crit for upwards of 1k on high resilience targets" totally smart) and between that and ks/vanish cs and kick, its hell, i mean you have to be a GOOD rogue to do it, but its hell for the shaman

and on esp's pet thing, restealthing after combat doesn't stop the pet from finding you but im pretty as long as you're out of the pet's attack range and vanish it'll drop the pet off you but i wouldn't waste prep if he was right on top of me, knowing how vanish works anymore

on the subject of poisons i never understood why crippling was a 70% speed reduction, especially now when they can shiv, AND with all their other anti-ranged talents/abilities they really don't need it

edit: just read panda's post, yeah combat is pretty much THE THING and every retarded rogue in the world who wants to be PVP GOD pretty much reads ming's blog and copies his spec point for point, i supposed mutilation is still big for spriest/rogue or any burst team, but combat is so much better, i saw a really weird spec a while ago though, 21/0/40, which is actually pretty amazing if he uses daggers, double coldblood backstab AND he still gets all the survival talents, plus cheat death which is ridiculous at the moment.

Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 07:27:46 pm by BobJustBob

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headphonics

#1670 June 14, 2008, 07:25:44 pm

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well you know they did make it unspammable (or did they take that off?) when they buffed the speed. it's really not that overpowered at this point because in its old form, even though you had to use it preemptively for 1.5 sec casts, you could literally just spam it for a long long time. i don't think it's all that bad now, considering it can only be used once. iirc casters really complained about rogues being able to spam it more than anything else.

also crippling poison is ridiculous at 70% but it's easily like the least reliable snare, man. it gets resisted frequently unless you're deep in ass. and have points to take that talent, and i mean like VERY FREQUENTLY, and it can be dispelled. it's so fucking frustrating to be facing a shaman/druid team (all teams) and just have your SINGLE SNARE constantly dispelled when there's absolutely nothing you can do to get hamstring off. yours is 20% less but i think you take the fact that it can't be dispelled for granted!

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#1671 June 14, 2008, 07:31:28 pm

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i don't know, i think deadly throw is pretty powerful because its instant you can use it as freely as you use kick 1v1 or even in 2v2 if the dps are trying to burn the healers of each team, i suppose the damage it does is more apparent to me (i got crit by one for 2.5k in wsg but im fresh 70 in pve blues/crafted shit) but its so fucking frustrating. i can double pet and block and i still lose really easily.

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#1672 June 14, 2008, 07:42:21 pm

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Quote from: headphonics on June 14, 2008, 07:16:20 pm

also uh, what about you know... non-sub rogues?

There aren't any. Like I mentioned a little bit up the page blizzard only intends to give each class one viable pvp build, in rogues' case deep sub. Obviously there are stubborn as shit mutilate rogues thinking they should still be able to one shot priests (actually got told this the other day) and pve combat rogues complaining about kiting but they have an overpowered unkiteable tree they can spec into so they can't complain.

Asking about anything but sub is like me complaining about how I can't arena as fire or arcane or in fact anything other than faggot 17/0/44 variants

Also yeah DT is way over the top unless used by really amateur rogues, one combo point DTs hit for over 1k a lot of the time and it's not even just a RANGED interrupt since a semi-intelligent rogue can run from a target they're ALREADY ON TOP OF and DT a cast, even short casts.

The only weakness sub rogues complain about is GIMPED DPS LMAO but I don't really know what they expect if they're going to be the most mobile class short of druids who always have been. Also I dunno how it is for others but both of my 70s are cloth classes with 450+ resilience and I can unequivically state their dps is in no way gimped

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HL

#1673 June 14, 2008, 07:49:06 pm

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ya this is also pretty much why i hate wow, they want one talent spec for every game type (solo PvE, Raiding PvE, PvP) and its so boring and lame.

:/

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#1674 June 14, 2008, 07:51:03 pm

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sub rogues cannot complain about dps at all because 99% of the top bracket rogues wear 4 piece t6 and maybe 150-200 res and shit all over people

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headphonics

#1675 June 14, 2008, 08:30:24 pm

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Quote from: BobJustBob on June 14, 2008, 07:31:28 pm

i don't know, i think deadly throw is pretty powerful because its instant you can use it as freely as you use kick 1v1 or even in 2v2 if the dps are trying to burn the healers of each team, i suppose the damage it does is more apparent to me (i got crit by one for 2.5k in wsg but im fresh 70 in pve blues/crafted shit) but its so fucking frustrating. i can double pet and block and i still lose really easily.

yeah the instant part is pretty deadly (hohoho) but i honestly preferred it as a rogue when it was a bit slower but i could use it 8 times in a row. there was nothing funnier than interrupting a mage's poly, frostbolt, and fireball from a range and getting to see him just STAND THERE with nothing to do. a good rogue could pretty easily use it preemptively so the INSTANT part isn't that huge; you're probably better off now just getting hit by it once. i was actually p. bummed by the changed since i've won more than a few matches against casters by spamming it. also first of all one point dts have never hit anything for over 1k, maybe CRIT but never hit! secondly the damage difference between a 1-pt and a 5-pt is nominal so keep that in mind too

that is pretty gay though. i was playing like 10 months ago and there wasn't really a spec you couldn't do well with. 41/20 and 41/0/20 were both good, combat maces was good, hemo and combat hemo were good. i was at like 2100 in 2v2 and pretty regularly switched off between mutilate and combat, and even hemo at times; they were all viable. it's disappointing to know that the direction they're taking it in is HEY YOU KNOW WHAT??? NOT EVERYONE'S CHARACTER IS IDENTICAL LETS DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT. it's not bad enough that by halfway though a season everyone is in either full pvp gear, or mostly full pvp gear with t6 in a few slots, with very few individual slot differences like WELL WHAT SECOND RING/TRINKET TO USE, but they have to make them all spec identically too. how lame.

also the dps thing shouldn't be an issue because even without 4 t6, and especially WITH, rogues are hitting very very good stats for pvp. like as 20/0/41 or w/e in 4 t6 you're at like 2100 ap, ~35% crit, and probably like 80-100 hit (i.e. more than enough), plus whatever armor pen you have and still have a good amount of health and alright resilience, and apparently like 40% dodge. hemo does incredibly good damage with that much crit and ap, even against resilienced out opponents, especially if you use ea. with a warglaive or fuck, even a s3 mh, you really would shit all over people, not just with burst, but like really good sustained damage too.

Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 08:33:15 pm by headphonics

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NovaGenesis

#1676 June 15, 2008, 12:32:00 am

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The main problem with wow devs atm is they are obsessed with making it an E-SPORT (what a fucking stupid term), and forgetting why people bought the game in the first place and have been playing it over MMO's ever since: the PvE.

90% of the time WoW's PvP just frustrates. Sometimes you will get a some nice one on one action and make a good fight out of it, but most of the time... well, to give an anecdote I'll be trying to do my daily quests on my priest, who doesn't do PvP, and some twat in full s3 - shoulders and weapons because they have no real skill will come along, CS-KS me and I am dead without actually being able to undertake any action at all. Or when I arena on my warrior, which I've only started fairly recently and I am the first to admit that PvP is not my forte, yet what can I do when my sole counter to the 13489548 stuns, roots, snares, sheeps and other random cc that every class has is a trinket on a 2 minute cooldown. Spending most of the time standing in roots or some shit while my partner has a rogue stunlocking them to death or a frost mage doing a roflshattercombo for eleventy billion damage isn't all that fun.

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#1677 June 15, 2008, 12:39:06 am

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Quote from: NovaGenesis on June 15, 2008, 12:32:00 am

forgetting why people bought the game in the first place and have been playing it over MMO's ever since: the PvE.

No, that's why YOU'VE been playing it over other MMOs.

On the 3 level 70 characters I have access to, two I leveled and one I was given, the extent of the raiding I've done is two kara runs both only up to curator.

Quote

Sometimes you will get a some nice one on one action and make a good fight out of it, but most of the time... well, to give an anecdote I'll be trying to do my daily quests on my priest, who doesn't do PvP

This should have maybe been obvious but if your priest doesn't DO pvp and you don't LIKE pvp you probably should have rolled on a pve (or as blizzard likes to call them "normal") realm :-)

edit: and you really can't say they're OBSESSED or even FOCUSING on making it a proper e-sport (yeah seriously awful term) when they won't rebalance abilities that need it based solely on pve encounters that are designed around it. Soul link needs a nerf for 6 months? SORRY we need that in its current form to tank Leotheras. Not to mention how much more content you people get than us pvp fans... we're still playing the same 3 battlegrounds we were at 60 because world pvp is dead, oh and that purple mostrosity cross breed BG because they bottled their original plans for it. 3 arenas too compared to those beautiful if boring raid encounters. Heh, obsessed.

Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 12:45:03 am by Mark

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headphonics

#1678 June 15, 2008, 12:55:51 am

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hey whatever happened to that azshara bg? that shit looked cool. also yeah i hate eots so fucking much. after hitting exalted like twice over or more i hate them all but i mean i REALLY HATE eots and i have literally played maybe one or two decent games of it ever, out of easily 100+

but i never got the point of NOT RAIDING you know? pvpers call it repetitive, but pvp's repetitive as hell too. it's the same battles over and over; when i fight a warlock, it typically goes like the billion other warlock fights i've seen. it's almost as predictable as pve for the most part! this was probably more accurate pre-bc when raiding gear WAS pvp gear for the most part, but there's still some decent amount of gear that's good for pvp that comes from raids. like, i don't think anyone's best possible equipment is solely from pvp, so it's odd to see people just not want to get random pieces from raids, especially like trinkets or whatever. i could never understand that whole "heh fuck pve *plays wsg for 8 1/2 hours*" attitude

but yeah given that the large minority of level 70 players actually partake in any of the newer/more serious raids, they put a lot of effort into them! like, the game is clearly balanced around pve as much as it is pvp in a lot of ways, and they clearly put more time and effort into designing instances/boss battles/raid gear than bgs/arenas, new pvp mechanics, and pvp gear (lol +4 all stats ENJOY YOUR NEW SEASON), even though more people pvp than will probably ever see those high-end raids. i don't think raiders have much to complain about

Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 12:59:47 am by headphonics

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NovaGenesis

#1679 June 15, 2008, 01:49:04 am

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Quote from: Mark on June 15, 2008, 12:39:06 am

No, that's why YOU'VE been playing it over other MMOs.

On the 3 level 70 characters I have access to, two I leveled and one I was given, the extent of the raiding I've done is two kara runs both only up to curator.
This should have maybe been obvious but if your priest doesn't DO pvp and you don't LIKE pvp you probably should have rolled on a pve (or as blizzard likes to call them "normal") realm :-)

edit: and you really can't say they're OBSESSED or even FOCUSING on making it a proper e-sport (yeah seriously awful term) when they won't rebalance abilities that need it based solely on pve encounters that are designed around it. Soul link needs a nerf for 6 months? SORRY we need that in its current form to tank Leotheras. Not to mention how much more content you people get than us pvp fans... we're still playing the same 3 battlegrounds we were at 60 because world pvp is dead, oh and that purple mostrosity cross breed BG because they bottled their original plans for it. 3 arenas too compared to those beautiful if boring raid encounters. Heh, obsessed.

I probably could have phrased it better, but by obsessed I mean constantly focusing on all these invitationals and tournaments and stuff, and adding all these new seasons with upgraded yet barely different gear which people don't need but they add to keep people farming. In terms of ACTUAL PVP CONTENT I agree, 4 BG's is not enough and their attempts to stoke world pvp in TBC have failed miserably so far, Halaa was the closest they came to getting right, but it failed after people realised they could AFK in AV for epics because at the end of the day, the things you get from Halaa are complete shite. If they made Halaa a faction, with daily quests you can pick up if you control it along with rep based rewards that don't plain suck as soon as you hit 70, then it may have worked better.

As for my priest, I already ground the BG's at 60 and then again at 70 on one character and since grinding honour is horrible (I don't really see how anyone can find this fun sorry!) I don't really feel like going through it all again. They even dicked over premades last patch which was the one way you could enjoy BG's. And the reroll PvE argument is only valid until Blizz stopped people transferring from PvE to PvP servers thus turning all PvE realms into stagnant dead ends that no-one wants to transfer to because theres NO WAY OUT.

I do like what they have done with season 4, ie adding rating requirement to most pieces so you actually need to display some kind of ability to get them, but man, copy pasting the PvE sets and RECOLOURING them was a horrible idea. I think that annoyed everyone, PvE'er and PvP'er alike.

Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 01:50:50 am by NovaGenesis

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#1680 June 15, 2008, 03:15:32 am

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i could never understand that whole "heh fuck pve *plays wsg for 8 1/2 hours*" attitude

lol I know what you mean but this isn't really me. I don't have some massive moral objection to PVE or anything, I'm not like FUCK raiding FUCK people who do it FUCK the whole concept, I just never found it fun. That's probably mainly because 90% of wow people I meet are horrible and a large part of the enjoyment you can get from raid nights is (as I understand it) doing some shared challenge with people you actually like.

Quote from: NovaGenesis on June 15, 2008, 01:49:04 am

by obsessed I mean constantly focusing on all these invitationals and tournaments and stuff, and adding all these new seasons with upgraded yet barely different gear which people don't need but they add to keep people farming.

Yep, even though I agree they add the new seasons to MAKE PEOPLE KEEP PLAYING it's kind of necessary they add new pvp gear (even though it is +4 to all stats shit) or PVErs with gear from the newest raid encounter could walk all over (roflstomp as they call it) PVP oriented players with unupgraded gear. Like if players who only PVPed were still wearing the blue level 70 HWL/GM gear or even season 1 epics, mages and rogues and well.. anything with tier 6 or even worse sunwell shit would annihilate them.

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Blizz stopped people transferring from PvE to PvP servers thus turning all PvE realms into stagnant dead ends that no-one wants to transfer to because theres NO WAY OUT.

Yeah this is pretty gay since the only reason you'd not be able to migrate off pve servers is ease of leveling and if you're somewhat intelligent at all you can avoid ganking PRETTY EASILY most of the time on anything but a full to the fucking brim high population pvp server.

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I do like what they have done with season 4, ie adding rating requirement to most pieces so you actually need to display some kind of ability to get them, but man, copy pasting the PvE sets and RECOLOURING them was a horrible idea. I think that annoyed everyone, PvE'er and PvP'er alike.

Blizzard's reason (excuse) for pvp sets seasons 1-4 sharing graphics with pve sets is to make it obvious at a cursory glance the gear level. Like they think s3 is equivilant to tier 6 but with a different focus. EVERYBODY knows this is bullshit though, it's just laziness and like you say pvper and pver alike would rather have seperate sets.
Considering the gem socketing system they introduced in tbc a good system in my opinion would have been like EVERYONE gets a set of simple pvp gear, raiders can leave it rotting in the bank if they like or wear it for casual pvp and pvpers can acquire gems for minor upgrades from arena and battlegrounds (and even world pvp areas) only usable in that gear. I wouldn't even care if the sets had the same graphics as 60 pvp sets or DUNGEONZSET3 or whatever shit that would be better

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