Has barack obama changed anything yet?

Topic: Has barack obama changed anything yet? (Read 6204 times)

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tuxedo marx

#41 March 20, 2011, 11:39:56 am

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Quote from: DietCoke on March 20, 2011, 11:25:24 am

that kind of imperialist cheerleading bullshit

i honestly do not know where you're getting this from

my point was that sometimes (i.e. yes rwanda, not iraq) it's necessary to step in and protect those who simply aren't equipped to defend themselves (the tutsi minority, the minority opposition forces in libya). it's quite literally protection in libya in terms of enforcing a no-fly zone and preventing gaddafi's forces from advancing

this is where the situation differs to iraq. there was very little in terms of active popular opposition to saddam hussein prior to the invasion and there was no intention of invading iraq on that basis; the coalition forces ostensibly went in on the (incorrect, fraudulant, bullshit) basis of WMD capability (read: mmmm oil or whatever takes your fancy). it was certainly right to remove saddam hussein from power and / or hold him accountable for many many years of reprehensible bullshit, but unquestionably not like this

summary: defense is not the same as aggression, which was where iraq was shitty and this isn't so much

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tuxedo marx

#42 March 20, 2011, 11:51:37 am

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other ways this differs to iraq: not shelling cities, unlike those fun guys behind gaddafi

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Barack Obama

#43 March 20, 2011, 12:00:32 pm

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Quote

i honestly do not know where you're getting this from

It's because I understand the implications of what you're defending better than you do.

Quote

it was certainly right to remove saddam hussein from power and / or hold him accountable for many many years of reprehensible bullshit, but unquestionably not like this

like I said, you are the same type of filth that made the Iraq war possible. You accept and promote the authority of imperialism to bloodily intervene in a sovereign nation's internal affairs while echoing the capitalist media's invocations of genocide as a justification. You're utterly complacent in the matter and won't do a fucking thing either way, so why do you even defend it? You're preaching from a pulpit of bones and cheerleading the further militarization of society.

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Barack Obama

#44 March 20, 2011, 12:03:54 pm

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also you're an idiot if you think the leadup to the the Iraq war started with the the WMD ordeal... remember Kuwait?

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Barack Obama

#45 March 20, 2011, 12:09:50 pm

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Geodude, understand this: I will continue calling you a piece of shit for your positions because I have absolutely no respect for them and think your invocation of the Rwandan genocide is baseless and a tired recycled piece of imperialist propaganda that's been used for just about every military intervention since.

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tuxedo marx

#46 March 20, 2011, 12:10:58 pm

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okay. i don't agree with you but i appreciate your honesty!

Quote from: DietCoke on March 20, 2011, 12:03:54 pm

also you're an idiot if you think the leadup to the the Iraq war started with the the WMD ordeal... remember Kuwait?

...though i would like to point out that i didn't actually say this, i'm aware it was one of many factors that came directly out of the gulf war. my point was that this was the big PR heading

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Rone Rivendale

#47 March 20, 2011, 02:56:57 pm

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Anyone else in this thread: (intelligent point)
DietCoke: You're an idiot
Anyone else in this thread: (another intelligent point)
DietCoke: You're a piece of shit

4 pages of this is kinda annoying. Whether you believe it or not, the U.S. has been for a long time the 'world police' and rightfully so. We don't invade countries and take them over. We help people who can't help themselves when evil dictators and the such are killing innocents.

Peace and Love

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tuxedo marx

#48 March 20, 2011, 03:17:59 pm

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Quote from: Rone Rivendale on March 20, 2011, 02:56:57 pm

the U.S. has been for a long time the 'world police' and rightfully so. We don't invade countries and take them over.

well this isn't right. this is supposed to be the UN's role and isn't that pretty much what happened in iraq

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Barack Obama

#49 March 20, 2011, 05:29:39 pm

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Quote from: Rone Rivendale on March 20, 2011, 02:56:57 pm

Anyone else in this thread: (intelligent point)
DietCoke: You're an idiot
Anyone else in this thread: (another intelligent point)
DietCoke: You're a piece of shit

4 pages of this is kinda annoying. Whether you believe it or not, the U.S. has been for a long time the 'world police' and rightfully so. We don't invade countries and take them over. We help people who can't help themselves when evil dictators and the such are killing innocents.

you're an idiot and a piece of shit warmongering yokel

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Kaworu

#50 March 20, 2011, 06:09:50 pm

kaworu*Sigh*Isnt he the cutest person ever
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team america world police

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Doktormartini

#51 March 20, 2011, 08:10:16 pm

Stop Radioactivity!
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Quote from: Rone Rivendale on March 20, 2011, 02:56:57 pm

Anyone else in this thread: (intelligent point)
DietCoke: You're an idiot
Anyone else in this thread: (another intelligent point)
DietCoke: You're a piece of shit

4 pages of this is kinda annoying. Whether you believe it or not, the U.S. has been for a long time the 'world police' and rightfully so. We don't invade countries and take them over. We help people who can't help themselves when evil dictators and the such are killing innocents.

It was only going on for 2 pages btw.

Dok Choy

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Barack Obama

#52 March 20, 2011, 11:05:19 pm

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I'll be a little less of a dick but really as someone who came into activism in the us during the runup to the iraq war I have almost no patience or respect for those who support this sort of intervention in sovereign nations affairs. It implies an acceptance of the authority of the un security council and its member states to put a horrible international war machine into motion that has a dispicable history and there needs to be uncompromising vocal opposition every step of the way.

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Farren

#53 March 20, 2011, 11:15:38 pm

I fear and I tremble
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no dude

we have to kill people, its our obligation. This country cannot continue without senseless murder and new innovative weaponry. If we stop bombing people and making bombs then the economy will fail. its the only way...

DEUCE: MEETING THE URINE UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL AND REALIZING IT'S JUST LIKE ME AND MY PREJUDICES THIS WHOLE TIME WERE COMPLETELY FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF PTTTTHTHTHH GOD IT'S EVERYWHERE<br />DEUCE: FUCK THIS TASTES LIKE PISS<br />PANTS: WHERE IT SHOULD TASTE LIKE COTTON CANDY OR PICKLES<br />DEUCE: OR AT LEAST LIKE URINE NOT PISS

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dada

#54 March 21, 2011, 01:30:41 am

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Quote from: DietCoke on March 20, 2011, 11:05:19 pm

I'll be a little less of a dick but really as someone who came into activism in the us during the runup to the iraq war I have almost no patience or respect for those who support this sort of intervention in sovereign nations affairs.

Yeah I get why you're like this but you have to understand that this stuff is extremely hard to get. This isn't like health care reform where you can relatively easily look up which scenarios exist and what sort of an effect they would have. Most issues in politics, once you get how the logic works, are about civil rights and the gap between rich and poor. Foreign policy, at least in my experience, is completely different and requires a pretty extensive grasp of (geopolitical) history.

I mean it's difficult for me too. Until like two years ago when I became interested I knew very little about even the most easily understood conflicts, like the illegal settlements in Israel. If I had never ventured outside of the traditional and mainstream media then right now I probably might not even know that Palestinians get killed by an order of magnitude more often than Israelis do. I might have been apathetic to the Palestinian cause without essentially being different from who I am.

So, you know, talk about this. It's interesting. And it's genuinely difficult to fully understand the issue. Geodude isn't a bad guy and I'm pretty sure you could convince him.

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DDay

#55 March 21, 2011, 02:20:40 am

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Quote from: Kaworu on March 20, 2011, 06:09:50 pm

team america world police

I know it was foolish for us to involve us in some bullshit that has nothing to do with us but he was killing his own civilians regardless of if they where rebels or not.

Let me put this way. If someone was trying to save me/us form impending doom from a mad man I'm all for it.

but yes this will not look good on us from most of the world prospective like always.

DDay is Dead I am a dead man typing

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Barack Obama

#56 March 21, 2011, 08:41:48 am

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Quote from: Dada on March 21, 2011, 01:30:41 am

Yeah I get why you're like this but you have to understand that this stuff is extremely hard to get. This isn't like health care reform where you can relatively easily look up which scenarios exist and what sort of an effect they would have. Most issues in politics, once you get how the logic works, are about civil rights and the gap between rich and poor. Foreign policy, at least in my experience, is completely different and requires a pretty extensive grasp of (geopolitical) history.

I mean it's difficult for me too. Until like two years ago when I became interested I knew very little about even the most easily understood conflicts, like the illegal settlements in Israel. If I had never ventured outside of the traditional and mainstream media then right now I probably might not even know that Palestinians get killed by an order of magnitude more often than Israelis do. I might have been apathetic to the Palestinian cause without essentially being different from who I am.

So, you know, talk about this. It's interesting. And it's genuinely difficult to fully understand the issue. Geodude isn't a bad guy and I'm pretty sure you could convince him.

IDK I don't really think it's worth it to play that game or even give it a shred of legitimacy, and I don't think the broader left that opposes this system should either. It's warmongering bullshit and that liberal apologist line of portraying imperialist intervention as some kind of humanitarianism, constantly invoking potential genocide in an attempt to add moral weight to their complicity with militarism, needs to be shouted down and shamed.

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Swordfish

#57 March 21, 2011, 10:21:00 am

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Personally i think America shouldn't have gotten involved, they've kinda become like a world police, almost as if it's there god given right to barge into a country and strong arm one side (or both) at least that's what It looks like to me. It's one thing for america to provide support to a group of people that want ther leader out and another entirley to do it for them. Still i've been reading and one of my favorite consipracy theories is :

Quote

Yeah, we've paid those Libyan civilians to sacrifice their own lives to make it look like Gaddafi's Mercenaries have murdered them in order to push through a legal and necessary UN sanction requested by the Libyan people themselves and invade the country to steal oil the Libyans were giving to us anyway.

but as intersting as this is, isn't this getting off the topic? if you want to talk about america acting as the world police, a new topic for that would be better then to talk about it in a thread about as to weather obama has actually done anything noteworthy.

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dada

#58 March 21, 2011, 11:54:07 am

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Quote from: DietCoke on March 21, 2011, 08:41:48 am

IDK I don't really think it's worth it to play that game or even give it a shred of legitimacy, and I don't think the broader left that opposes this system should either. It's warmongering bullshit and that liberal apologist line of portraying imperialist intervention as some kind of humanitarianism, constantly invoking potential genocide in an attempt to add moral weight to their complicity with militarism, needs to be shouted down and shamed.

But you have to acknowledge that the average liberal, who probably opposes Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan and whatever other recent examples you can think of, but supports the uprisings in the Middle East and is horrified by the accounts of civilians getting decimated by Gaddafi's professional army would be conflicted in this situation. The waters are muddied by the fact that a bloody uprising is currently taking place, especially to those who don't really pay that much attention to foreign affairs to begin with. What a lot of people are saying right now is: "I don't support military interventionism in general, but these strikes will probably make it possible for the revolution to succeed, so I support this instance of interventionism." That's pretty much the same line as originally used for Iraq, and this so-called no-fly zone is really tantamount to an invasion, but I wouldn't really attribute this line of thought to malice so much as to ignorance. It's hard to be properly informed when you don't know a shred of how military imperialism works, and most people don't (and I really don't know too much about it either).

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dada

#59 March 21, 2011, 12:00:18 pm

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Quote from: Swordfish on March 21, 2011, 10:21:00 am

but as intersting as this is, isn't this getting off the topic? if you want to talk about america acting as the world police, a new topic for that would be better then to talk about it in a thread about as to weather obama has actually done anything noteworthy.

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Swordfish

#60 March 21, 2011, 12:07:01 pm

Comrade!?! I AM NOT A FUCKING RUSSIAN
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What, you kinda are derailing the thread with as much subtlety as a jackhammer to the face.

RIP DoktorMartini

My brute!

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