Ness should be high if not top. He has some of the strongest attacks in the game.

I mean PK thunder into someone (when you hit yourself) > like falcos anything, same with wolf.

I dont think Pit should be Top but thats just my opinion of course.

Anyway regardless of tiers I play worst tiers and still beat top tiers. So I dont really understand them.


Also

Only thing I don't like is ROB being high and Sheik mid, I'd switch them around, but it's otherwise pretty fine.

I thought that too untill I played a R.O.B in a random brawl. 4 ppl and he was 13-1. No smash balls/dragoons either.

Seems okay... Is Falco really that good? I guess I should take another look at him. Any tips?

Also does anyone know what Lucas's spike is? I guess it's his dair but I can't seem to work it right.

Just play me and you'll see some of the shit Falco can do since I main him (but I play pretty conservatively when lag is high, kinda scared to go and fuck up and die just because I wanted to do something). Basically, Falco is the only character in the game with an actual infinite (laserlock), he can chaingrab the entire cast, he basically beats everyone out of the air in a matter of seconds and he can get you up to 100% in less than 30 seconds. He's pretty much the no-brainer choice for a top tier character, tho he does need some technical skills and that shit doesn't work online too well.

Pretty sure Lucas's spikes are his d-air and back air, both only spike at the end I think tho.

The reason Pit is top is because he can spam projectiles more than anyone else in the game (and stop anyone in their track), his back air sweetspot kills at 80% and sometimes even less, is practically unkillable (5 jumps, gliding AND up B is just ridiculous, I managed to recover from one side of the screen to the opposite edge once just because I wanted to fuck around) and he has the fastest forward and down smashes in the entire game.

You gotta realize that tiers are based on tournament rules and change when it's not 1-on-1 tho so things that work (ie: Ness/Lucas ramming into people) doesn't work as well in those settings and usually gets you killed more than anything else, and stuff that does work in 1-on-1 does the opposite in free for alls, they're two very different worlds.

Edit: And yeah, tiers aren't a thing that says "LOL THIS CHARACTER CAN'T WIN", there's a bunch of good players who actually use the so-called shitty characters and show the extents to which said characters can go. The thing is, they usually require a lot more work to get to the same result as the characters ranked higher. Take Ganon for example. Yeah, he's got a crazy good side B, deals stupid damage and can kill you in one hit if you're stupid and roll into him, but that's just it: it only works if the other guy is stupid or you're a lot better than he is at the game. When measured up against an equally skilled Falco, Ganon can still win but he'll have to get through the chain grabs, the short hop double lasers and everything else Falco can land on him before he even gets to react to actually deal anything on him. It's not to say that Ganon won't get a few kills or even win the game (some low tiers actually have pretty good matchups against the better characters but get destroyed by the rest of the cast), but he'll have to work for his victory while the Falco player will probably just do the same bullshit he's been doing against everyone else and still have it easier for him on brain power, technical ability and damage racking combos compared to his opponent.
Just to further illustrate my point, here's a video of Simna Ibn Sind (top Ness player): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNX_H3GzSLs
Look at how he needs to work for his kills, he's actively dash dancing, wave dashing and doing advanced techniques while the other player is just playing a cookie cutter Fox (albeit a pretty damn good one). It's even more obvious when Simna gets thrown off the stage and edgeguarded, Ender just does basic ledgehogging (hold on to the ledge and roll when the other is near, hold a smash and wait for the guy to come back down) while Simna has to position himself properly for anything to hit. It's pretty disheartening that he has to put in so much work and barely manages to gain the upper hand just to get beat by something that should theoretically not work very well but still does because of the disparities between both characters.

Ness should be high if not top. He has some of the strongest attacks in the game.

I mean PK thunder into someone (when you hit yourself) > like falcos anything, same with wolf.

I dont think Pit should be Top but thats just my opinion of course.

Anyway regardless of tiers I play worst tiers and still beat top tiers. So I dont really understand them.

My opinions:

First of all, to my understanding, tiers measure how much potential the characters have when fighting at a tournament level.  As in, 1-on-1, no items.  They're not saying lower tier characters can't beat higher tier characters.  That you're able to win with lower-tier characters doesn't invalidate them.

Ness' PK Thunder, used offensively, is way too slow.  I've been hit with it a good amount of times... but I'm still a novice.  Tournament-level players will almost certainly know how to counter it, as they did in Melee.  It's just way too slow of a move.  It's kinda like the Falcon Punch... it's such a cool move, but using it in most cases is basically inviting your opponent to bitch-slap you.  Ness has much better offensive moves than that. 

As for Pit... he's quick, his recovery is excellent (and easy-to-use), he's got a great projectile, he can rack up damage quickly, and his smashes aren't bad.  Sounds like a top-tier character to me.

Yeah, that's just it. It's not like "Oh he's using Wolf and the other guy is using yoshi. The one with wolf will most likely win." The tiers are just there to show the characters potential, and it isn't like high tiers always beat the lower tiers.

My opinions:

First of all, to my understanding, tiers measure how much potential the characters have when fighting at a tournament level.  As in, 1-on-1, no items.  They're not saying lower tier characters can't beat higher tier characters.  That you're able to win with lower-tier characters doesn't invalidate them.

Ness' PK Thunder, used offensively, is way too slow.  I've been hit with it a good amount of times... but I'm still a novice.  Tournament-level players will almost certainly know how to counter it, as they did in Melee.  It's just way too slow of a move.  It's kinda like the Falcon Punch... it's such a cool move, but using it in most cases is basically inviting your opponent to bitch-slap you.  Ness has much better offensive moves than that. 

I played as ness since SSB64 (even though i sucked with him because i was alot younger and i just used link because he was beast)

In melee his PK thunder seems MUCH slower than in brawl, and the turning was more difficult, or not difficult but wider.

I've been able to get PK-Thunders off easy by a mix combo ending with a PK-Fire and instantly after I cast I do PK thunder letting me get the hit in (unless of course the pk fire misses, than i just end up hitting nothing but avoiding a counter as well)


Anyway I wasnt saying thats his only powerful attack, I was just simply naming the first one that came to my head.

Oh well I dont care much for tiers really, but you guys say what you want.


Happy Brawling.

Edit- When I said "But you guys say what you want" I actually meant like, I'm sure if theres 2 complete noobs, ones using top tier the other bottom tier the top will win 1v1.

Just reading that again, it made me realize I seemed kinda arrogant.

And ness is my boy, cant be hating on him with mid tier ;)

I'm still going to do my best with everybody, and I don't mind working harder for my victories (actually makes the brawls more interesting to me).  I'll acknowledge the worth of tiers, but I don't think I'll accomodate them into my playstyle.  I'm glad G&W is listed further up, though.

I'm bored as shit right now, so I'm hosting a game for 1-on-1 casuals. If anyone wants to get on, just do it but make sure items are disabled on your side please.

Edit: Haha, sorry about that YoshiJRC, I know how frustrated you must be right now. Falco's chaingrab is way too ridiculous. Good games anyway, playing you is always fun.

Hah.  No need to apologize.  Your Falco is really tough. 

I'm still making too many careless mistakes, I think... and I need to work on Sheik's combos.  I was rarely able to land them on your Falco.

I think it has to do with Brawl's engine. The tilts combo into another only at certain percents and even then I can usually shield after one or two hits and grab you out of it, probably because of the shitty hitstun on most characters.

Still you give me some trouble and I actually have to think about what I have to do when playing you so it's all good. Also it's impossible to zone you with SHDL because you never jump. Ever.

Edit: Man this came off kinda wrong, I didn't mean that you're BAD or anything but that you're actually good enough to, you know, not get 3 stocked every matches or resort to lag tactics (hi Manowar). Every time I play you it gets a little harder too, so that means you're getting better the more you play, which is good I guess if you want to get good at the game.

Yeah I feel like I'm getting better at least.

Also, I actually was thinking that maybe I jump too much!  I guess not.  Maybe I need to jump more.

You know... I've been practicing in the 1-player mode a lot with Zelda lately and I like some of her moves a lot.  I'm seriously considering implementing some sort of strategy of switching between her and Sheik... I'll have to try it out online.

Her smashes are just too good (whereas Sheik's can be damn frustrating).  And her sweet-spotted aerials are really useful too.

My friend came over tonight to try and do some break the targets fun with me, here's what came out of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6EwE9Ldx70

Pretty sure we got the world record on that one.

My friend came over tonight to try and do some break the targets fun with me, here's what came out of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6EwE9Ldx70

Pretty sure we got the world record on that one.

Wow...

Good matches YoshiJRC, and ROG. Who is ROG anyhow? I don't see him on here.

ROG is a friend of mine.

Switching between Sheik and Zelda is a lot of fun.  I tried it out a bunch today.

Sometimes it helped me... but other times it probably only made me easier to beat.  I need to work on it.

Also this was in matches against 2 other people.  1-on-1, it might be a riskier move.