Topic: Morality of Meat Eaters (Read 5736 times)

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Some people can't get over the fact that we're omnivores.

While it is possible to have a "happy ever after" life eating only vegetables, or by eating only meat, it is not optimal for a human being health. You see guys, our body was made in such a way that we can adapt to many circumstances, and survival is one of our primary functions. Of course, there are things we can't fully digest, including certain elements from both vegetables and meats, our body uses what it needs, everything else is defecated damn it.

If someone by devotion is a vegan or vegetarian, that's perfectly fine. But again, because someone is devoted to this by no means it should try to imply everyone else that what he or she is doing is the correct thing, it's just different.

EDIT: Oh yes btw, I agree with DoktorMartini in this one. But complete AA chains (complete proteins) can be found in MANY plant sources, and so EFA's (essential fatty acid's). My favorite plant-protein source is amaranth, and for EFA I'd go for chia seeds or flax.
Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 12:35:02 am by Pulits
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Killing a human being is immoral. Eating a human being is immoral. Killing anything when there is an option around it is immoral. Killing an animal needlessly is immoral. Is eating meat immoral? Let's fully debate the morality of carnivores.


So you registered just to post this? Your regdate and post date match up  :gwa:​. 

On topic, the debate really boils down to "Do you believe that killing a cow or other farm animal is immoral." Believe it or not, some people with differing opinions to that of Peta and other 'Animal Rights' groups would say that they don't really find it objective to humanely kill a cow. (Note that everyone's definition of humane is different, and what Peta claims is humane absolutely differs from a slaughterhouse worker, but by 'humane' I of course mean the traditional way.)

Lyric, what can you tell us about Peta and the ALF? Do you consider the ALF terrorists?

Edit:

Because so much food, water (it is estimated that 90% of our water is used for agricultural purposes) that goes to the animals raised for food could thus be used to help the people in poverty.

John Robbins wrote a book called Diet for a New America where he has statistics.  It came out in the 80's so you could make the claim it's outdated but it still presents good facts.

I stand corrected, this does go deeper than I had previously said.  I've never thought of it that way, but I still see nothing morally wrong  with eating meat from a purely 'is meat murder' standpoint.
Last Edit: June 08, 2008, 03:54:37 am by Bakagamer
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The world starves to sustain the meat industry and our "healthy" "over-consumptious" appetites,
the same amount of land it takes to fatten cattle, could be use to solve the present food crisis,
but look nobody really hears of it here, nor wishes to be reminded of such,
and nobodies going to change the way they live according to what I say.
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The world starves to sustain the meat industry and our "healthy" "over-consumptious" appetites,
the same amount of land it takes to fatten cattle, could be use to solve the present food crisis,
but look nobody really hears of it here, nor wishes to be reminded of such,
and nobodies going to change the way they live according to what I say.
For sure but solving the present food crisis isn't just "lol stop eating meat" it goes way more in depth than that.  It's true though going vegan can help starving people.
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Wait what, how can going vegan help starving people?
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Wait what, how can going vegan help starving people?
Because so much food, water (it is estimated that 90% of our water is used for agricultural purposes) that goes to the animals raised for food could thus be used to help the people in poverty.

John Robbins wrote a book called Diet for a New America where he has statistics.  It came out in the 80's so you could make the claim it's outdated but it still presents good facts.
Quote from: Diet for a New America
The Hunger Argument:
Number of People worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million
Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced meat intake by 10%: 60 million
Human beings in America: 296 million
Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by US livestock: 1.3 billion
Percentage of corn grown in US eaten by people: 20%
Percentage of corn grown in US eaten by livestock: 80%
Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90%
Percentage of oats grown in US eaten by livestock: 95%
How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds
Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 20,000 lbs
Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 165 lbs
Percentage of US farmland devoted to beef production: 56%
Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce 1 pound of feedlot beef: 16 lbs.
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I think that's wonderful Doktormartini.  I will see to it that my dad stops feeding his cows leftover pieces of the corn we make for ourselves and not specifically for them and see to it that they simply don't eat anything.

edit: to be clear i mean the corn that we as humans make for ourselves, not my family itself
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I think that's wonderful Doktormartini.  I will see to it that my dad stops feeding his cows leftover pieces of the corn we make for ourselves and not specifically for them and see to it that they simply don't eat anything.
Uhhh it's not leftover food.
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Uhhh it's not leftover food.

A large amount of the corn cows eat is the corn that we make for us that isn't edible by us.  For example, a lot of farmers buy corn that was hit hard by droughts.  PERCENTAGE OF CORN GROWN does not mean PERCENTAGE OF GOOD CORN GROWN.  It's making use of things we can't eat.
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A large amount of the corn cows eat is the corn that we make for us that isn't edible by us.  For example, a lot of farmers buy corn that was hit hard by droughts.  PERCENTAGE OF CORN GROWN does not mean PERCENTAGE OF GOOD CORN GROWN.  It's making use of things we can't eat.
Yes that is true, but then you get into the problem of feeding animals like cows foods that are not natural to them.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-06-09-beef-cover_x.htm
Like, cows are herbivores why feed them ground up chicken???

Quote
f you don't finish your steak at a restaurant, did you know the leftovers might be dinner for a cow?
Based on this why couldn't we be able to send the left overs to people in poverty?
Dok Choy
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Yes that is true, but then you get into the problem of feeding animals like cows foods that are not natural to them.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-06-09-beef-cover_x.htm
Like, cows are herbivores why feed them ground up chicken???

Because you are once again blaming a whole for a part.  Most farms don't do that.  Shit farms do that.  You are saying DON'T EAT MEAT because shit farms do bad things.  Most farms feed their cows hay and the parts of corn that we can't use--which is perfectly good and usable to cows (and perfectly natural for them, they aren't hard to convince about eating corn because they'll push each other around to do so).  We aren't feeding them ground up chicken, bad farms are.  Be against bad farms all you want, but it's still not a solid argument against eating meat entirely, just watching where you are getting that meat from.


Also, that article is 5 years old.  Regulations change, man.
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So wait... "this here corn can't be consumed by humans...let's give it to poor people!"  Is that your argument?

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So wait... "this here corn can't be consumed by humans...let's give it to poor people!"  Is that your argument?
http://www.epa.gov/oecaagct/ag101/cropmajor.html
Quote
According to the National Corn Growers Association, about eighty percent of all corn grown in the U.S. is consumed by domestic and overseas livestock, poultry, and fish production. The crop is fed as ground grain, silage, high-moisture, and high-oil corn. About 12% of the U.S. corn crop ends up in foods that are either consumed directly (e.g. corn chips) or indirectly (e.g. high fructose corn syrup). It also has a wide array of industrial uses including ethanol, a popular oxygenate in cleaner burning auto fuels.
Basically almost all the corn we grow is given to livestock, so it's not just shit corn. 
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http://www.epa.gov/oecaagct/ag101/cropmajor.htmlBasically almost all the corn we grow is given to livestock, so it's not just shit corn. 

this epa seems to be very credible, go government stuff

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/02/washington/02pest.html
http://government.zdnet.com/?p=3776
http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/04/23/epa.scientists.ap/index.html

if they do this kinda shit I wonder else they skew :gwa:

but in all seriousness, yeah most of the corn does go to livestock, most of it I wouldn't really want to feed to a human being because well, it really wouldn't do much the kind they feed to livestock for humans, so yeah, it is just shit corn. The corn we eat is harvested a lot earlier than when most of the crops are.

I wouldn't complain really if they decided to make more corn for human use, that'd be nice for all the people who are starving sure, but the only way they will do that is if the whole world decided to become sickly incredibly skinny and unhealthy vegans
Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 06:19:24 am by pseudo-emo
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I wish I would have seen this topic earlier, considering I'm vegan too. But I can't really be bothered to read it all--I think I've heard this discussion over and over again already.

As for my two cents, I don't think eating meat is morally wrong. Of course, I hate the industries and so on, but if you're living in a hunter-gatherer tribe (which on the other hand most of us don't) and you like to e.g. catch fish and it keeps you alive then I see no reason why this would be immoral. I do however think that veganism has a lot of benefits which in my opinion makes it superior to an omnivorous diet. For example, meat (or the "production" of it) pollutes more than animal-free replacements/beans/whatever, and veganism is generally very healthy if you do it right.

Nevertheless, I strongly believe that there is no one right way for humans to live, and this is why I don't consider meat eating, you know, WRONG. I think meat is pretty unnecessary and destructive in this civilization, but wrong? No, you can adopt any diet you want to as far as I'm concerned. In the long run, veganism or vegetarianism probably will not save the planet. But if meat is avoidable and abstaining from it has many positive effects on both yourself, other living beings and the planet, I see no reason not to adopt an animal-free diet/lifestyle.

People often ask me "Why vegan?" and the best answer I have is "Why not?"
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Is it our right to follow laws, set to scare and to oppress?
Is it a gift to stay in line and will it take away the blame?
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because no one else is and we've been non-vegan for all of human history.

if that's really your best answer it's no wonder you don't get a followup question.
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not only what steel said but I'm pretty sure in every vegan topic we have come up with a long list of cons that doktormartini has just responded to with pseudo-science biased sources

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If you are so opposed to eating meat, what do you say to all of the farmers and their families who depend on the meat industry to survive

How is the struggling American economy supposed to compensate for a loss of a billion dollar industry?
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because no one else is and we've been non-vegan for all of human history.

if that's really your best answer it's no wonder you don't get a followup question.

Okay, I guess I didn't mean it was my best answer, but it's an answer that summarizes my ideas: For me there's nothing to lose by being a vegan. Only benefits to gain from.

Edit: For all of human history we've also been using physical violence and acting generally stupid. So that's pretty irrelevant in my opinion. Rather, the question is, what kind of society do you want to live in, in the future? I choose to live consciously, in harmony with animals and nature for a sustainable environment--there's nothing unnatural about that.
Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 05:10:20 pm by JJ
Is it our duty to die for governments and for gods?
Is it our privilege to slave for market and for industry?
Is it our right to follow laws, set to scare and to oppress?
Is it a gift to stay in line and will it take away the blame?
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well yeah but I'd rather live in a society where my dick gets sucked every day by anyone I point to, you pick and choose buddy!

basically I wish the people who fought for animal rights would stop conflating it as a huge issue when they could make real strides instead of DID YOU KNOW? NO ONE EATS BEEF REALLY ITS ACTUALLY A TYPE OF SLURRY.
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