There are no good or bad guys, just soldier's blindly following orders. ~Metal Gear Solid.


On a serious note, this is really really bad and a semi worry about it escalating to a big war. Anyone know how probable that is?

I dunno, I think considering the massive improvements Georgia has made since it elected a free democratic leader and how terrible almost everything about life in Russia is, it's pretty clear who are the good and bad guys here (even if it is terrible that they are actually at war).

honestly, even if we argued who are "the bad guys" and "the good" guys by your terms (that is brushing everyone under the brush of a nationalism), its really not that simple.  90% of the people in South Otessia are russian citizens and Georgia was the one that gave the first strike. Also fact that Washington is probably immersed in this, and therefore it means giving that strp of land away could mean that Russia is further cornered by American influence. honestly, your answer is very american and has also to do the fact that westerners drool over the word "democracy" and "multiparty democracy".


Honestly, how is Goergia and Russia very different about "how terrible" they are? When the USSR collapsed, both countries went to hell and although they had free elections, that shit is not really important compared to having food in your table, a roof, a job, and access to medicine. It was until recently that Georgia started to get a little better in terms of life expectancy - but certainly it has very little to do with "free democratic leader" or not. This is why your answer is very american, because a lot of folk in other countries seriously care more about not dying at 50 rather than going to vote for politicos.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter.  People conscripted to die for their flag aren't "bad guys", and yet they are the ones that get blowned up and blamed for everything.

No, I certainly wasn't implying the Russian soldiers themselves are 'bad guys', but as far as politics are concerned, the Russian political establishment manipulated a neighboring country that was finally beginning to turn itself around into a horrendous war for expansionist doctrines that don't even come close to fulfilling anything similar to a Just War, regardless of whether you feel that there is such a thing as a 'just' war.

If there are 'bad guys' here it is in my mind beyond the shadow of a doubt the Russian leadership.

It was until recently that Georgia started to get a little better in terms of life expectancy - but certainly it has very little to do with "free democratic leader" or not. This is why your answer is very american, because a lot of folk in other countries seriously care more about not dying at 50 rather than going to vote for politicos.

Most international observatory agencies credit the recent successes in Georgia with the new leadership and government. I'm not really sure why this a point of contention; the previous group under Shevardnadze was a band of corrupt and incompetent thieves and the Rose Revolution brought in a vastly better group, even if they aren't the nicest bunch of people.

This isn't a pro-American answer either since Shevardnadze was far closer to America than Saakashvili is!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552012.stm

...

He's overdoing it now, really I can't see anyone other than his most die hard supporters not calling bullshit on this!

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:UgWOgw-udKEJ:answers.yahoo.com/question/index%3Fqid%3D20080808091149AA3VGTk+http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index%3Fqid%3D20080808091149AA3VGTk&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

i was wondering when someone would be stupid enough to do this

honestly, even if we argued who are "the bad guys" and "the good" guys by your terms (that is brushing everyone under the brush of a nationalism), its really not that simple.  90% of the people in South Otessia are russian citizens and Georgia was the one that gave the first strike. Also fact that Washington is probably immersed in this, and therefore it means giving that strp of land away could mean that Russia is further cornered by American influence. honestly, your answer is very american and has also to do the fact that westerners drool over the word "democracy" and "multiparty democracy".


Honestly, how is Goergia and Russia very different about "how terrible" they are? When the USSR collapsed, both countries went to hell and although they had free elections, that shit is not really important compared to having food in your table, a roof, a job, and access to medicine. It was until recently that Georgia started to get a little better in terms of life expectancy - but certainly it has very little to do with "free democratic leader" or not. This is why your answer is very american, because a lot of folk in other countries seriously care more about not dying at 50 rather than going to vote for politicos.

I don't think this is true. from what I've seen georgian democracy is considered to be worse off than russian, labeled a "hybrid regime" with a democracy index below Russia's. the quality of life is supposed to be higher in georgia tho.

I agree with you otherise, but remember that russia has been provoking South Ossentia for a while and that's the whole reason this is a problem now.\

fuck putin

bb thats somebodies joke I'm pretty sure

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:UgWOgw-udKEJ:answers.yahoo.com/question/index%3Fqid%3D20080808091149AA3VGTk+http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index%3Fqid%3D20080808091149AA3VGTk&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

i was wondering when someone would be stupid enough to do this

I was recently thinking about a subject like this.  USA is still a pretty racist and bigoted country but when shit hits the fan all that patriot propaganda really goes to our heads.  I can see Russian tanks and infantry rolling through the streets of Atlanta only to be stopped by thousands of citizens armed with dirty bombs and sniping from every window.

THANK YOU 2ND AMENDMENT

There is so much misinformation in this thread it is STAGGERING (some coming from our resident republican).

South Ossetia is an autonomous region inbetween Georgia and Russia, it is still technically considered a part of Georgia by many groups (Georgia itself). The people in South Osettia have wanted to join Russia for years now, the Georgians obviously don't want this to happen. The South Osettian resistance groups have been fighting the Georgian army for some time to gain their independence, recently Georgia began attacking South Ossetia and killing civilians, this has provoked Russia into protecting the people who support them.

Also the president of Georgia is a murdering shithead.

This isn't a fucking war for oil unless you believe the Georgian President on cnn and.... (FOX NEWS) claiming that it is, claiming this is a war against tyranny.

Essentially, the tyrants here are Georgia, they are killing civilians and shelling civilian towns, Russia has stepped in to protect its interests after being goaded into war.

Sorry you're all dumb

I dunno dude. If Russia were so RIGHTEOUS about all this why did they need to do underhanded shit like spreading misinformation and attacking their websites and so on?

I'm really not convinced - it's hard to believe that there's a totally unselfish reason for Russia to get involved. As said before it kinda reeks of Putin.

But, you're right in that Georgia are the aggressors here and thusly I'm just going to sit on the fence and watch it unfold because at the moment it's just a shit conflict and there's not really 'good guys' and 'bad guys' considering it's hard to tell right now.


EDIT: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iJ9IRmTvOK0ZfH1k2_SLbrR1lyRQD92FILAG0

Fucking hell.

in geopolitics, there isnt such thing as entirely "unselfish" reasons in anything. governments dont spend billions of dollars to preach the word of god.

i

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian-Russian_relations
Reading this is kinda very vital for anyone trying to form an opinion on this matter.

A couple of articles of interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_deportation_of_Georgians_from_Russia  (this is when I first started folowing the georgia/Russia row)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Georgia_helicopter_incident

I'll need to read more about this subject, but definitively shocking news.

I hope it doesn't gets bigger.

I've been trying to come up with a decent post for a while now, but there isn't much we can do besides watch as this gets worse and worse. we've got a lot of news since this started, and apparently there really are no good guys in this conflict! when this started I was more agaisnt Russia because of all the shit they did to Georgians leading up to this war, but georgia has done some really terrible stuff since then. there's no way this is going to end well for anyone.

There is so much misinformation in this thread it is STAGGERING (some coming from our resident republican).

South Ossetia is an autonomous region inbetween Georgia and Russia, it is still technically considered a part of Georgia by many groups (Georgia itself). The people in South Osettia have wanted to join Russia for years now, the Georgians obviously don't want this to happen. The South Osettian resistance groups have been fighting the Georgian army for some time to gain their independence, recently Georgia began attacking South Ossetia and killing civilians, this has provoked Russia into protecting the people who support them.

Also the president of Georgia is a murdering shithead.

This isn't a fucking war for oil unless you believe the Georgian President on cnn and.... (FOX NEWS) claiming that it is, claiming this is a war against tyranny.

Essentially, the tyrants here are Georgia, they are killing civilians and shelling civilian towns, Russia has stepped in to protect its interests after being goaded into war.

Sorry you're all dumb

can you stop making such dramatic reactionary posts ALL THE TIME, it's really annoying! and your idealistic liberation and pro-Russian shit is just as bad as the pro-georgian stuff Marmot countered earlier.

I just love how the UN "Peacekeepers" in South Ossetia have always been entirely made up of Russian soldiers.

Also Sakashvili isn't a murdering shithead Truth hes a fucking ex-winery owner for gods sake.

There is so much misinformation in this thread it is STAGGERING (some coming from our resident republican).

South Ossetia is an autonomous region inbetween Georgia and Russia, it is still technically considered a part of Georgia by many groups (Georgia itself). The people in South Osettia have wanted to join Russia for years now, the Georgians obviously don't want this to happen. The South Osettian resistance groups have been fighting the Georgian army for some time to gain their independence, recently Georgia began attacking South Ossetia and killing civilians, this has provoked Russia into protecting the people who support them.

Also the president of Georgia is a murdering shithead.

This isn't a fucking war for oil unless you believe the Georgian President on cnn and.... (FOX NEWS) claiming that it is, claiming this is a war against tyranny.

Essentially, the tyrants here are Georgia, they are killing civilians and shelling civilian towns, Russia has stepped in to protect its interests after being goaded into war.

Sorry you're all dumb

is it really necessary to be so hugely condescending and FURIOUS!!! in every single post you make?

it'd also be nice if you and marmot could refrain from basically spewing ideological propaganda in every single post thanks.

what ideological propaganda? i simply stated my opinion, as all the people who say RUSSIA IS BAD HEH LONG LIVE AMERICA are. i dont think i used any particularly IDEOLOGICAL word.

what ideological propaganda? i simply stated my opinion, as all the people who say RUSSIA IS BAD HEH LONG LIVE AMERICA are. i dont think i used any particularly IDEOLOGICAL word.

except no one was saying anything about LONG LIVE AMERICA or whatever. you just seem to find a way in every topic to insert some HEH CAPITALIST AMERICANS... TYPICAL AMERICAN RESPONSE or some reference to marx/socialism/class warfare/etc