Russia claims to be trying to stop an ethnic cleansing Georgia is doing on their South Ossetian separatists, but you guys claim they are really after some sort of path to dig pipes for oil (or something like that. something oil related). On the other hand, the Georgian president says to his people "THEY JUST DON'T WANT FREEDOM". Georgia claims Russia is going through the streets with tanks and MURDERING GEORGIANS IN MASSES IN A GENOCIDAL FASHION

I don't get why you people simply assume Russia is in the wrong, like as if it was obvious. I don't see how anyone, given the few clues we got, could like take any position but not taking one at this current point. I think any claim of lies right now is just wild speculation based on gut feelings, probably because Russian is BIG SCARY GOLIATH OF THE PAST while Georgia is a small and comparatively weak country. Its not because they're weak and small that they are automatically in the right. Both countries pretty much claim the other is perpetrating ww2-ish genocides (I am pretty sure both are even using this same world war 2 vocabulary for it too). Unless some real tough appears that one of the countries' claims is really invalid, there is absolutely no position to be had here for now, other than gut feelings, which are hardly things to debate about.  Unless there WAS such evidence actually, and I simply missed it?

What? How was my post condescending. Nowhere in my post did I tell anyone they were wrong, I was meaning for it to be educational about the situation because the people on IRC, including a bunch of politically savvy and smart people, were not aware of the general reasons for conflict in the region. I don't see what your issue with my post is anyway, you like to dress it up in pretty words with strong political connotations but it all comes down to competition over the resources in this region and each side trying to pressure the others, some more strongly and with military force, but the same principle applies. I don't know where you get your information but it would seem that your sources are likely slanted if they mention the same fervor as you took in your post. My sources are from professors of European politics and Russian history in classes i have taken on the subject, people who I have accused at times of being liberally-slanted themselves and yet they STILL would agree with the summary I gave in my post but okay, I must be wrong because I am the "resident republican" right? Because that is all I really draw from your post and that is what people are pointing out is condescending. You have taken no regard for the information I presented and don't seem to even realize that some of the political maneuvering you mentioned is as a direct result of things I mentioned but if you want to go on ignoring these things under the facade of "I don't care what people think of me blah blah" then go for it, but if you do then you need to stop implying that I am ignorant.

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh my whole point was saying "if my post was condescending then jeff's was as well", and if I don't think I was being condescending... how must I have felt about your post..........................................

Holy shit. Just saw this on Digg.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1045030/Video-Georgian-TV-reporter-shot-Russian-sniper-live-broadcast-carries-report-bleeding-arm.html

Man

Pictures taken by a Russian soldier in South Ossetia

Definitely not for the faint of heart. You probably won't see a side of war this ugly in any American media, though once you see some of the pictures you'll realize why.

Holy shit. Just saw this on Digg.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1045030/Video-Georgian-TV-reporter-shot-Russian-sniper-live-broadcast-carries-report-bleeding-arm.html

Man

The daily mail is horribly biased in this if you guys hadn't noticed.

also it's hilarious hearing mccain talking about a country shouldn't invade another country in this century uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hey john what about iraq ok

Holy shit is that black thing a burnt person? I think I am going to have nightmares about that.

also wow that is a shot of a tank turret that was flung through a second story wall and fell through the floor.

those pictures are awful. the worst part is that most of the corpses are civilians.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'realize why' though, unless you mean it's just too grotesque and awful.

man that guy's shoulder looked wicked painful, those pictures are pretty gruesome though.

but what about the body infront of the old black military looking van was that a manikin or a body? the body with its arms up

That was a deceased soldier wearing the Georgian uniform.

yeah mccain has said some really bad stuff regarding this war, I'm sorry but anyone planning to vote for the guy: you're still an idiot

I really get the feeling that sniper video was faked! there's all this news and you can never tell what's real outside of official negotiations, which russia seems to keep screwing up

i dont get why georgia attacked south otessia. it doesnt make sense in my head except that they probably received the ups from washington and then washington bailed out. otherwise it is an extremely stupid move.

I don't know I don't call it attacking when its your land, I call it protecting your own territory. Either way Georgia agreed to a EU brokered cease fire and Russia is just kind of ignoring it and pushing farther into Georgia. So do some of you still think Russia is the good guys here?

The way I understood it Georgia attacked the russians in South Ossetia first and then the russian troops went in to protect them and besides I doubt this war got any "good guys".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/15/russia.poland.nuclear.missiles.threat

God damn it Russia. What gives.

Poland are no threat to Russia and this is simply bullying of smaller nations now.

i dont get why georgia attacked south otessia. it doesnt make sense in my head except that they probably received the ups from washington and then washington bailed out. otherwise it is an extremely stupid move.

that's probably what happened. picking the opening weekend of the olympics to try to seize a breakaway state probably ranks up there with some of the stupidest political moves ever.

you know on one hand Russia's overwhelming and overproportionate response should be frowned upon but on the other hand you can't start a war and then complain that it's not ending the way you want it to!

of all people to quote this is one of the worst but:

    American charges of Russian aggression ring hollow. Georgia started this fight -- Russia finished it. People who start wars don't get to decide how and when they end.

    Russia's response was "disproportionate" and "brutal," wailed Bush.

    True. But did we not authorize Israel to bomb Lebanon for 35 days in response to a border skirmish where several Israel soldiers were killed and two captured? Was that not many times more "disproportionate"?

    Russia has invaded a sovereign country, railed Bush. But did not the United States bomb Serbia for 78 days and invade to force it to surrender a province, Kosovo, to which Serbia had a far greater historic claim than Georgia had to Abkhazia or South Ossetia, both of which prefer Moscow to Tbilisi?

    Is not Western hypocrisy astonishing?

Great article from the Times Online.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4525885.ece

The cartoon images have shown Russia as an angry bear, stretching out a claw to maul Georgia. Russia is certainly angry, and, like a beast provoked, has bared its teeth. But it is the wrong stereotype. What the world has seen last week is a brilliant and brutal display of Russia's national game, chess. And Moscow has just declared checkmate.

Chess is a slow game. One has to be ready to ignore provocations, lose a few pawns and turn the hubris of others into their own entrapment. For years there has been rising resentment within Russia. Some of this is inevitable: the loss of empire, a burning sense of grievance and the fear that in the 1990s, amid domestic chaos and economic collapse, Russia's views no longer mattered.

A generalised resentment, similar to the sour undercurrents of Weimar Germany, began to focus on specific issues: the nonchalance of the Clinton Administration about Russian sensitivities, especially over the Balkans and in opening Nato's door to former Warsaw Pact members; the neo-conservative agenda of the early Bush years that saw no role for Russia in its global agenda; and Washington's ingratitude after 9/11 for vital Kremlin support over terrorism, Afghanistan and intelligence on extremism.

More infuriating was Western encouragement of “freedom” in the former Soviet satellite states that gave carte blanche to forces long hostile to Russia. In the Baltic states, Soviet occupation could be portrayed as worse than the Nazis. EU commissioners from new member states could target Russian policies. Populists in Eastern Europe could ride to power on anti-Russian rhetoric emboldened by Western applause for their fluency in English.

Nowhere was such taunting more wounding than in Ukraine and Georgia, two countries long part of the Russian Empire, whose history, religion and culture were so intertwined with Russia's. Moscow tried, disastrously, to check Western, and particularly American, influence in Ukraine. The clumsy meddling led to the Orange Revolution.

Georgia was a different matter. Relations were always mercurial, but Eduard Shevardnadze, the wily former Soviet Foreign Minister, knew how to keep atavistic animosities in check. Not so his brash successor, Mikheil Saakashvili. From then on, hubris was Tbilisi's undoing.

It was not simply the dismissive rhetoric, the open door to US advisers or the economic illiteracy in forgetting dependence on Russian energy and remittance from across the border; it was the determined attempt to make Georgia a US regional ally and outpost of US influence.

Big powers do not like other big powers poaching. This may not be moral or fair but it is reality, and one that underpins the Security Council veto. The Monroe Doctrine - “hands off the Americas” - has been policy in Washington for 200 years. The US is ready to risk war to keep out not only other powers but hostile ideologies - in Cuba and Nicaragua.

Vladimir Putin lost several pawns on the chessboard - Kosovo, Iraq, Nato membership for the Baltic states, US renunciation of the ABM treaty, US missiles in Poland and the Czech Republic. But he waited.

The trap was set in Georgia. When President Saakashvili blundered into South Ossetia, sending in an army to shell, kill and maim on a vicious scale (against US advice and his promised word), Russia was waiting.

It was not only Mr Saakashvili who thought that he had the distraction of the Olympics to cover him; the Kremlin also knew that Mr Bush was watching basketball, and, in the longer term, that the US army was fully engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan. From the day that the Russian tank brigade raced through the tunnel into South Ossetia, Russia has not made one wrong move. Mr Bush's remarks yesterday notwithstanding, In five days it turned an overreaching blunder by a Western-backed opponent into a devastating exposure of Western impotence, dithering and double standards on respecting national sovereignty (viz Iraq).

The attack was short, sharp and deadly - enough to send the Georgians fleeing in humiliating panic, their rout captured by global television. The destruction was enough to hurt, but not so much that the world would be roused in fury. The timing of the ceasefire was precise: just hours before President Sarkozy could voice Western anger. Moscow made clear that it retained the initiative. And despite sporadic breaches - on both sides - Russia has blunted Georgian charges that this is a war of annihilation.

Moscow can also counter Georgian PR, the last weapon left to Tbilisi. Human rights? Look at what Georgia has done in South Ossetia (and also in Abkhazia). National sovereignty? Look at the detachment of Kosovo from Serbia. False pretexts? Look at Ronald Reagan's invasion of Grenada to “rescue” US medical students. Western outrage? Look at the confused cacophony.

There are lessons everywhere. To the former Soviet republics - remember your geography. To Nato - do you still want to incorporate Caucasian vendettas into your alliance? To Tbilisi - do you want to keep a President who brought this on you? To Washington - does Russia's voice still count for nothing? Like it or not, it counts for a lot.

Also a lot more people are saying 'hey this is Georgia's fault!' I guess I was wrong.

yeah georgia did some terrible stuff in this war and Bush, McCain, etc have been stupidly pro-georgia, but that's nothing new. we've been saying since like page 2 when more info arrived that there were no good guys in this conflict, and it's been repeated pretty much every page since then. keep in mind that just because georgia made an incredibly stupid move that started this war, that doesn't meant hat Russia didn't want this war and didn't want to exploit the conflict with Georgia as much as possible. america who are you to talk, believe me I've been against all of our dumb wars too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONICYAHcTcc&feature=related
this is a cool vid