Games Super Smash Bros. Brawl [11/05/2007: Fox's Misfortune/Fire Emblem Theme] (Read 77739 times)

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Now let's play out that scenario in poker:
*Shadowtext pays in 100 dollars*
*Shadowtext vs. Erave vs. Jester for 5,000 dollars*
*Shadowtext gets a really crap hand*
*Shadowtext sucks at bluffing*
*Shadowtext loses, then bitches and moans until they change the rules of Poker so that he can't get screwed by a bad hand*
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Now let's play out that scenario in poker:
*Shadowtext pays in 100 dollars*
*Shadowtext vs. Erave vs. Jester for 5,000 dollars*
*Shadowtext gets a really crap hand*
*Shadowtext sucks at bluffing*
*Shadowtext loses, then bitches and moans until they change the rules of Poker so that he can't get screwed by a bad hand*


poker is a game of chance, and there is no way to change that, that is a horrible analogy to a videogame that has had the chance factor removed so that it becomes about skill not luck. If you enjoy the game of luck...play it as such. But if the tournament holders prefer the game of skill, don't bitch about it. There are tournament holders for Smash who play it on luck too...they just aren't popular or very many of those.

edit: and their payout sucks big time too usually
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Did you just say poker was a game of chance?  Oh dear...

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Did you just say poker was a game of chance?  Oh dear...

Uh...

cause it is.

chance:
2.   luck or fortune: a game of chance.

Poker is a game of chance dude...you could get a very unlucky hand then GGPO. That isn't to say there isn't skill in it (because there definately is), but luck governs a major part of the game.
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Any competitive player of Poker (see what I did there?) will tell you that the hands you're dealt have little to do with who wins at Poker. At least amongst fairly skilled players.
Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 05:57:07 pm by Shadowtext
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Any competitive player of Poker (see what I did there?) will tell you that the hands you're dealt have little to do with who wins at Poker. At least amongst fairly skilled players.

Poker != Smash

edit: espically when the random items and stages in smash definately have a lot to do with who would win.
Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 06:00:01 pm by DarkNecrid
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The problem is that some characters can better cope with randomness and items better than others, while they are not as good at straight play.

For example, I used to play as Pikachu who is good at collecting and using items, and adapting to random elements.  Being able to nab that heart or star better than other characters is what balanced him out against his other weaknesses.  But I was terrible if I was playing on Final Destination against a single opponent with no items.  Pikachu, like some characters are better at fighting multiple opponents and some characters are better at one on one.

So the problem with removing items or stages is that it handicaps characters who were meant to use them to their advantage - it screws with the balance.  The random elements, while random, balance each other out when they're all used together.  I used to take out items that weren't very good or interesting like the screw attack and fire flower.  But then I changed my mind when I realize you need those not-so-good items to balance against the powerful ones.

Of course I can see the problem when you're in a tournament with 3 stock and a misplaced exploding crate instantly destroys the better player.  The problem (or uniqueness) in Smash that is not in other fighting games is that you can't determine who the better player is in 3 stock, 5 stock or even 10 stock.  It takes longer because there are so many random situations that can occur.
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who the fuck even wants to play smash brothers on a boring flat stage with no items against one other person.

what are you, too gay for street fighter?

competitive videogaming is the stupidest thing ever, I would probably be upset if I ever won one of those tournaments with anything other than just PLAYING FOR FUN.

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items arent equally unfair, they benefit one player and the rest get screwed and its by random luck. now if every player had access to the same items, then it would be equally unfair etc (that would be pretty ok too imo)
no. it's equally unfair in that a box could appear and smack ANYONE in the head. that is what equally unfair means. or.. equally fair. you have the same chance as your enemy as having a fire flower appear at your feet or a bob-omb fall on your face.

stages are the only thing that are capable of being totally unfair, due to glitches in their landscape that certain characters can take advantage of.
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who the fuck even wants to play smash brothers on a boring flat stage with no items against one other person.

I would, but I play more for the love of the fight than the actual victory.  Sometimes I just want to show what I can really do, and that's easiest on a flat stage without all the random elements.

HOWEVER, I would not want to give up all the other stages and items just because of that!  Most of the fun I have playing SSBM is from fighting completely random battles.  It's just two sides of the same coin.
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no. it's equally unfair in that a box could appear and smack ANYONE in the head. that is what equally unfair means. or.. equally fair. you have the same chance as your enemy as having a fire flower appear at your feet or a bob-omb fall on your face.

stages are the only thing that are capable of being totally unfair, due to glitches in their landscape that certain characters can take advantage of.

yeah in addition to this: luck and probability were clearly factors the developers placed in the game to balance it. I don't see why you'd remove it just so you can demonstrate who can hit a sequence of buttons faster.

I would, but I play more for the love of the fight than the actual victory.  Sometimes I just want to show what I can really do, and that's easiest on a flat stage without all the random elements.

HOWEVER, I would not want to give up all the other stages and items just because of that!  Most of the fun I have playing SSBM is from fighting completely random battles.  It's just two sides of the same coin.

I'd argue that by making it final destination you make it easier on everyone playing and it demonstrates less skill, focusing instead on "well I know what this character can do how to block it" which, once again, raises the question as to why you don't play something with huge move sets like Street Fighter or Virtua Fighter.
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I'd argue that by making it final destination you make it easier on everyone playing and it demonstrates less skill, focusing instead on "well I know what this character can do how to block it" which, once again, raises the question as to why you don't play something with huge move sets like Street Fighter or Virtua Fighter.

Actually, that makes a lot of sense.  Yes, it does make it easier for the player, because it removes all distractions besides the opponent.  That's where the allure lies, it demonstrates what you can do when you don't have to worry about everything else, when you can go all out on somebody without fear of a random exploding crate.

As for the moveset argument, part of the reason I prefer SSBM to other fighting games is the simplicity of the movesets.  The controls are the same for each character, with slight variations depending on their fighting style.  You don't have to memorize long obscure button combos of ultimate ownage (and who plays to get owned anyway?).  It's not the size of the moveset, but how well you can implement it, and especially around the moves of your opponent.
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yeah in addition to this: luck and probability were clearly factors the developers placed in the game to balance it. I don't see why you'd remove it just so you can demonstrate who can hit a sequence of buttons faster.

I'd argue that by making it final destination you make it easier on everyone playing and it demonstrates less skill, focusing instead on "well I know what this character can do how to block it" which, once again, raises the question as to why you don't play something with huge move sets like Street Fighter or Virtua Fighter.
well, you know, like i said, that's up to the tourney guys. obviously they all enjoy it, man! otherwise why would there even BE a smash tourney.. tournament.. event thing?

so yeah as long as the hardcore crowd arent arguing OH MAN THAT FEATURE SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN ADDED THAT RUINS IT FOR US i have no beef.
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so yeah as long as the hardcore crowd arent arguing OH MAN THAT FEATURE SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN ADDED THAT RUINS IT FOR US i have no beef.

Exactly.  Games should never be designed specifically for tournament players, they should be designed for the enjoyment of the people buying it.  The point of these games isn't TO WIN MONEY playing them, it's to have a good time.  Tournaments can set up their own rules around that, but if they want to whine about features not being added because it ruins their tournament when the average player might enjoy that feature a lot, then they can just find another game to have a tournament with.
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Exactly.  Games should never be designed specifically for tournament players, they should be designed for the enjoyment of the people buying it.  The point of these games isn't TO WIN MONEY playing them, it's to have a good time.  Tournaments can set up their own rules around that, but if they want to whine about features not being added because it ruins their tournament when the average player might enjoy that feature a lot, then they can just find another game to have a tournament with.
ya.

but i dont think any tourney players ARE saying OH THAT SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN ADDED so i dont really know what we are discussin' up in here
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Except that as much as people like to crunch numbers and pretend like they're really intense games of skill, it's not like the one who wins was really the better fighter.
From playing fighting games obsessively, I can tell you right now that you are dead fucking wrong. AFAIK there's only one computer game were skill matters more and that's Q3.
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but i dont think any tourney players ARE saying OH THAT SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN ADDED so i dont really know what we are discussin' up in here

There are probably some somewhere but yeah I haven't seen anyone here so far do that so IT'S COOL GUYS  :fogetsmile:
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who the fuck even wants to play smash brothers on a boring flat stage with no items against one other person.

what are you, too gay for street fighter?

competitive videogaming is the stupidest thing ever, I would probably be upset if I ever won one of those tournaments with anything other than just PLAYING FOR FUN.

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Never said I really liked it. I don't play pro. But I do mostly play on FD and other simple stages because I want to focus more on the combat rather than dodging random shit. It's a preference really. Because when you take away all the items and obstacles Smash is still a really fun game because of all the close range combat and thinking involved. Not "oh shit, I forgot where he put that bomb thing." Not that's there's anything wrong with it.
Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 07:08:49 pm by Erave
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Now that we've settled this, let us go back to discussing how Megaman is tomorrow's update today's update.

What's this Classic stuff?  Is there a mode where the game behaves like the original SSB, is that it?

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Classic mode is pretty much the same as the original SSB, but with randomnity added so it's not always Link, then Mario Bros., then Fox...in melee, you fought random people for each match, within certain constraints (ie, 1 on 1, 2 on 2, 1 on 1, giant person X, break the targets and stuff inbetween...).  Looks like this time it will be a little more defined.
Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 07:17:16 pm by halibabica
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