Character builder anyone? ;)

Fuck no.

"However, the plan is for that stage to vanish once one day has passed. It’s a once-in-a-lifetime encounter."

So, if its a really good stage, you can't keep it? Lame

I've thought about this as well. They may make it so you can download the stage onto your SD card. If they don't and if a stage is good, I'll probably just pause, copy the stage down, and remake it myself.

Maybe in a typical fighting game, but half of smash bros fun is the crazy stages and how well you can play on them

This is what you don't understand. What's fun for you may not be fun for someone else. People who play by tournament rules play because they find them fun; they wouldn't be playing if they didn't.

Just as a question for tournament players: why is it that all the house rules for tournaments seem to be about trying to remove as much depth from the game as possible? I understand taking away elements that rely on randomness (sorta. In that I see why people would whine if you didn't--players who refer to themselves as "competitive" almost always have excuses for making the things they're not good at illegal), but I don't get why you would remove strategic elements.

The same question begs itself when I hear people talking about disabling smash balls and all this other stuff. It's like they want the competitive game to be as arbitrarily unlike the actual game as possible.

Here's basically how this works. Tournaments are meant to be a test of skill. The player with the most skill is meant to win. Now, most scrubs complain that tourney players are lame and suck because they can't handle random elements in a game and some think they could actually win if items and random stages were allowed. Truth of the matter is, if you had items and random stages on, the pro would still kick the scrub's ass. The competitive players tend to have much better reactions and can think very clearly even in a tough match. That's what makes them good.

Now, when you have only good players playing in a tournament, the difference in skill level is only a fraction of what it is compared to the difference of a pro and scrub. That being said, random elements could fuck the player that is truly better and actually cause him the match (or possibly the tournament) because the player who is worse may just get lucky and win. And as you may or may not know, tournaments are not tests of luck, but tests of skill. Yes, each player should be able to use items just as efficiently as the next, but one player usually gets lucky and ends up getting most of the better items because they spawn closer to him. The randomness/luck factor evens out eventually for every player, but it takes several matches to do so and tournaments are only 2-3 fights per set, which is why they're usually taken out. However, there are items tournaments out there for those who really can't live without them.

If you were in an intense fist fight with someone and there was a chance of someone jumping in and punching either you or your opponent in the nuts randomly, would you want to take that chance?

What I don't understand however, is why people who have never been to a tournament, will never go to a tournament, and will never play against tournament players even care how they play? I think I've explained Shadowtext's question pretty accurately. I'd like to know the answer to mine.

EDIT: I'm thinking of a platform only stage with no solid ground. I think it could work pretty well. I wonder if they'll have platforms you can spike through like in the Sky World stage.

Fuck no.

I've thought about this as well. They may make it so you can download the stage onto your SD card. If they don't and if a stage is good, I'll probably just pause, copy the stage down, and remake it myself.

Here's basically how this works. Tournaments are meant to be a test of skill. The player with the most skill is meant to win. Now, most scrubs complain that tourney players are lame and suck because they can't handle random elements in a game and some think they could actually win if items and random stages were allowed. Truth of the matter is, if you had items and random stages on, the pro would still kick the scrub's ass. The competitive players tend to have much better reactions and can think very clearly even in a tough match. That's what makes them good.

Now, when you have only good players playing in a tournament, the difference in skill level is only a fraction of what it is compared to the difference of a pro and scrub. That being said, random elements could fuck the player that is truly better and actually cause him the match (or possibly the tournament) because the player who is worse may just get lucky and win. And as you may or may not know, tournaments are not tests of luck, but tests of skill. Yes, each player should be able to use items just as efficiently as the next, but one player usually gets lucky and ends up getting most of the better items because they spawn closer to him. The randomness/luck factor evens out eventually for every player, but it takes several matches to do so and tournaments are only 2-3 fights per set, which is why they're usually taken out. However, there are items tournaments out there for those who really can't live without them.

Except that as much as people like to crunch numbers and pretend like they're really intense games of skill, it's not like the one who wins was really the better fighter. The one who wins is just the person whose strategy panned out this time. The randomness of a battle is what even makes a tournament possible. There wouldn't be a point in competition if it were just a question of character and player stats versus one another--the higher stat would always win. But that just flat out isn't the case.

So any conceit of objective tests of skill is pretty much just an exercise in futility to start with.

If you were in an intense fist fight with someone and there was a chance of someone jumping in and punching either you or your opponent in the nuts randomly, would you want to take that chance?

Both opponents have the opportunity to take that chance. A good fighter would come in expecting any cheap shot like that and be prepared to deal with it. A bad fighter would get punched in the nuts and then whine about it afterwards because he didn't think of it first.

What I don't understand however, is why people who have never been to a tournament, will never go to a tournament, and will never play against tournament players even care how they play? I think I've explained Shadowtext's question pretty accurately. I'd like to know the answer to mine.

Maybe it's the way tournament players have a tendency of looking down their noses at players who aren't competitive? That's just one thought, though. Another is that some of us would love to play competitively, but find the constant rules-lawyering and whining on the parts of so many of the competitive community ridiculous, and the rules they come up with arbitrary and all in all less fun than the non-competitive game.

Except that as much as people like to crunch numbers and pretend like they're really intense games of skill, it's not like the one who wins was really the better fighter. The one who wins is just the person whose strategy panned out this time. The randomness of a battle is what even makes a tournament possible. There wouldn't be a point in competition if it were just a question of character and player stats versus one another--the higher stat would always win. But that just flat out isn't the case.

So any conceit of objective tests of skill is pretty much just an exercise in futility to start with.

Not really. If that was the case, why did Ken (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Hoang) consistently get first place in most of the tournaments he went to? And after he stoped playing smash competitively, a guy named M2K took over and he now ranks number one in most tournaments. How do you explain that?

Both opponents have the opportunity to take that chance. A good fighter would come in expecting any cheap shot like that and be prepared to deal with it. A bad fighter would get punched in the nuts and then whine about it afterwards because he didn't think of it first.

That would work if there was only one random element. That nut punch was just one example. It's like comparing it to one random element in smash. However, if you toss in 30+ random elements (items and stages), then it gets hard to anticipate anything that might come at you. And some things you just can't do anything about, like an exploding crate or capsule spawning in front of you while you're in the middle of a combo or an item spawning next to the other player.

Maybe it's the way tournament players have a tendency of looking down their noses at players who aren't competitive? That's just one thought, though. Another is that some of us would love to play competitively, but find the constant rules-lawyering and whining on the parts of so many of the competitive community ridiculous, and the rules they come up with arbitrary and all in all less fun than the non-competitive game.

I think it's the other way around. I usually notice people making fun of how tournament players play and of all of the rules they use. People call wavedashing, l-cancelling, or whatever other techniques cheap and whine about it because they lose to players who use them and either can't do the techniques or can't devote the time to learning them. I consider myself at near "pro" level in melee and if I play against someone who can't do advanced techniques or who just isn't a good player overall, I usually try to give them advice and help them improve. I like playing against new people and would rather help someone get better than discourage them from playing just because they can't do something or aren't as good.

To me it seems like most so-called "elitist" are just lashing back at those who provoke them. I don't know though. Maybe I'm just delusional.

When I'm playing for fun (which is most of the time), I leave all the stages on and all the items on (very low, so they don't become overwhelming).  But, if I'm looking for a serious match, it's always going to be stock on Final Destination.  Tournament rules aren't so much about random elements screwing up the game, it's just a way for a player to show their skill when there are no outside interferences.

Is it just me or is it pretty sad that this Super Smash Brothers player has a longer Wikipedia article than Osmo Vanska? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmo_Vanska

Like, not to be a music snob or anything, but I'm pretty sure that Osmo Vanska is probably a more important person than Ken Hoang.

It's not his fault Wikipedia has a bigger article about him than Vanska. But yes, I guess it is somewhat sad, even though I've never heard of him personally.

As a potential spectator, I would rather watch a match of Super Smash Bros, not a match of generic fighting game with flat level featuring characters from Super Smash Bros.

Tournaments can be a potential source of entertainment for me (even if its only on youtube), but they aren't because half the game is missing.

Selfish, I know, but Sarhan wanted a real answer.

First of all, an example of why some stages are banned:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRBZKre9M_M

Also, watch some of these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSI--msWmI8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfhLEM-cHnw (ignore the shitty music)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m1-x2EeD6U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmzYeDCbv0c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HfkotbduzU (check out 0:52-0:53 and tell me that isn't sweet...also 0:56-0:57 and 1:48-1:49-OMG tourney players know how to use itens lolz)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhFU3p7Yu1o (0:52-0:58 check out the speed on those ICs...1:57-2:06 ICs infinite grab...2:29-2:40 Samus missile spam)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBdqQ93o42I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jteRL6oxw1E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0cVcJCOmfQ (2:27-2:33=awesome combo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqQB55d-Tdw

Sorry for the assload of vids. In retrospect, some of these may suck, but I'm not going to look over them again.

You guys are forgetting one thing. Tournament players are competing for MONEY. So, if they got blown up by a Bom-Bomb and it cost them 3000$, yea.

This.

Plus anyone who needs randomness (REAL CONTENTZ LOL) is obviously not a great smash player.
I'm not great, the only tourney I've been to, I lost in the first round by being paired up with my buddy. Where was the content when I needed it?


Stage builder completely took me off guard. No way we get a character this week.