Soulman you can't honestly be saying that can you? Jerusalem and the surrounding areas have changed hands about once every 100 years for the last two millenium. I don't think anyone can "claim" ownership.

Hmph. I wish they'd just carpet bomb that whole area Ive heard about it enough. Either that or roudn everyone there up and put them on an island somewhere problem solved

pretty sure about a week ago panda quoted you making a nigger call

making a nigger call? what does that even mean?


Also almost all of you are just plain stupid as fuck. The heh... both sides are wrong bullshit is hilarious. THE ISRAELI PEOPLE ARE COMMITTING GENOCIDE AND APARTHEID ON THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE how hard is this to understand? They are starving them, they are not letting medicine into gaza, they are WALLING THESE PEOPLE INTO A GHETTO WITH POWER 7-8 HOURS OF THE DAY IF THEY ARE LUCKY. They are kidnapping hamas politicians and placing them in israeli jails because of their gall to be democratically elected.

Nevermind that Hamas essentially ceased all firing at israel during the cease fire , nevermind that it was israel who broke the ceasefire (sources) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians (very good opinion piece: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/1230/1230581467173.html). So Hamas the party whose people were starving and dying of preventable diseases DID NOT BREAK THE CEASEFIRE. Israel the group whose people lived first world lives free from want or suffering are the ones who broke the ceasefire.

The subject is very black and white, the Israeli people have been subjugating the Palestinians for 60 years now, they have been treating them like animals while bulldozing their homes and shooting their children.

Israel are trying to focus on military targets, therefore any civilian deaths are equal in terms of morality to the accidental deaths of Iraqi civilians when America/Britain aims to hit military targets and doesn't. So before people start throwing around statements like "illegal airstrikes", perhaps we should look at our own actions first. Also, unlike America/Britain, Israel actually has very good intelligence and tends to hit the military targets it is gunning for. The civilian deaths are tragic, obviously, but they are not intentional. Equally, if it wasn't for the fact that Hamas purposefully puts these military targets in civilian areas then civilians wouldn't be getting killed at all (again, just like in Iraq). Hamas clearly don't understand that you can't fire missiles at another country's civilians and then say "You can't fire at us because you'll hit civilians". If Hamas want to attack Israel for the wrongs they percieve are being done against them then they should do it in a way that doesn't endanger non-combatants; by endangering non-combatants on purpose they lose all footing in an argument of morality. Basically, Hamas are bringing this on the Gazan(?) people by purposefully using civilians as human shields, so the blame lays squarely on them.

As for Israel's actions in general, I fully support them. I know that if someone was firing missiles (however shitty) at England I would want the RAF to try and take out those missile sites. Israel is protecting its own civilians and has the right to do that, whether or not the missiles are accurate/technologically sound isn't the issue.

Also, "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter", so stop arguing which of the two Hamas are.

I mean how do you even think this, how does this even enter your brain? Who here supports what the American or British Armies are doing? And I'm laughing so hard here at the good intelligence bit, they bombed a un aid station in a school the other night killing 40 civilians, great intelligence there! It's also already been established that Gaza is one of the most densely packed Urban areas in the world, these people live there, there is no thought process of "hm... let's live close to civilians to shield ourselves heh..." these are where these people live. Israel is bombing Police stations (HAMAS PARTY MEMBERS THEY MUST BE TERRORISTS) a university, schools and people's homes. Where do you even expect people to go, they are in a walled in city that has an entire blockade thrust upon it.

srael isn't bombing civilians, it is bombing military targets. Children are dying because Hamas purposefully places those targets near civilian areas.

we've already been through this, I really don't know how you even come up with this.

I'd prefer they acknowledge they have no chance against merkava tanks and find another way to solve their problems that doesn't involve suicide bombing and anything else that will just get their own people killed

Absolute slave mentality you're advocating. When Hamas "tries other ways" like oh I don't know... obeying the cease fire, they get their politicians imprisoned their "terrorist gunmen" (para-militaries) killed and their people? Refused access to food medicine and electricity.

But go ahead, you're all just going to ignore the facts and reputable sources we've been linking and instead say that HELPLESS POOR STARVING PEOPLE FIGHTING BACK WITH BOTTLE ROCKETS AGAINST APARTHEID should be killed by rockets and tanks (over 500 dead now).

Not to also mention that hamas is a piece of shit organization. Did you froget how they murdered their own people when they were trying to get into power?? do you not remember the Fatah? They literally broke into fatah members homes and dropped them out of their homes upside down to kill them.

Yep, that's what "freedom fighters" do. Truth will probably say that the Fatah was Israel's bitch or something.

no one here can defend the israelies bombing the un aid camp, i can't even think of any justification for that, HOWEVER, a lot of their targets are purely military and only 25% of those killed are civilians, which to me seems like a pretty accurate number seeing how this is uh, war, and not to mention that Hamas likes to blend in with the civilian population.

Not to also mention that hamas is a piece of shit organization. Did you froget how they murdered their own people when they were trying to get into power?? do you not remember the Fatah? They literally broke into fatah members homes and dropped them out of their homes upside down to kill them.

also, the point of israel bombing the fuck out of hamas isn't to AVENGE the several israelies killed or whatever, they're pretty much using the same mentality that russia uses against the chechens when they decide to do something stupid, and that is to pretty much teach them a lesson to NOT DO IT AGAIN, which in russia's case (and which China also seems to do) is a pretty effective method. THAT'S NOT TO SAY that i support bombing UN AID POSTS or whatever!!!

also, to whoever said all those fuckload of rockets have been fired by the palestinians: rarely anyone ever gets killed. BUT they specifically target it at civilian populations.

The 25 figure is JUST women and children as there is no accurate way to determine who is a military target right now.

If you believe that even a majority of the men that have been killed have been "military targets" or whatever horseshit you're spouting then you're a fucking moron.

Yes let me teach you a lesson you damn poor starving idiots.... whoops lol 600 of you are dead.

Yep, that's what "freedom fighters" do. Truth will probably say that the Fatah was Israel's bitch or something.

That's exactly what they are, Fatah collaborates with Israel and during the election Fatah and Hamas both attacked each other.

really wish you'd quit glorifying a really shitty branch of political islam truth. as lovely a freedom fighter as they may be, they still deny the holocaust, specifically target civilians, and oppress media and dissidents.

like marmot said, the only difference between them and israel is they don't have the capability to kill as many jews as israel does brownies.

yeah, and the macho political posturing o a lot of anti-zionists is silly and childish. the whole "heh die on your feet not on your knees" is silly and made by people who are politically bankrupt. i think people who really care about palestinain folk would encourage dessertion/mutiny rather than dying for reactionaries like Hamas. certainly, if i where there i would hide or try to get away, not cheer at sugarrockets.

no one here can defend the israelies bombing the un aid camp, i can't even think of any justification for that, HOWEVER, a lot of their targets are purely military and only 25% of those killed are civilians, which to me seems like a pretty accurate number seeing how this is uh, war, and not to mention that Hamas likes to blend in with the civilian population.

Not to also mention that hamas is a piece of shit organization. Did you froget how they murdered their own people when they were trying to get into power?? do you not remember the Fatah? They literally broke into fatah members homes and dropped them out of their homes upside down to kill them.

also, the point of israel bombing the fuck out of hamas isn't to AVENGE the several israelies killed or whatever, they're pretty much using the same mentality that russia uses against the chechens when they decide to do something stupid, and that is to pretty much teach them a lesson to NOT DO IT AGAIN, which in russia's case (and which China also seems to do) is a pretty effective method. THAT'S NOT TO SAY that i support bombing UN AID POSTS or whatever!!!

also, to whoever said all those fuckload of rockets have been fired by the palestinians: rarely anyone ever gets killed. BUT they specifically target it at civilian populations.

Where the FUCK are you getting '25% are civilians'? Its more like HALF... 25% are WOMEN and CHILDREN. Are you neglecting to count all of the INNOCENT MEN that have died, which makes up a huge percentage as well?

I don't know what the hell to say to half of these types of replies, at least Truth is pretty much holding up the fort here... Trying to GLORIFY and MAKE UP EXCUSES for ETHNIC CLEANSING/GENOCIDE is just pure horse shit. Did you know Hamas was democratically elected, after the fucking west came in and employed and forced their own type of government (democratic government) onto these poor Palestinian people who have already been kicked around, murdered, enslaved and shoved into the concentration camp known as Gaza?

You ignorant assholes are unbelievable. There is a point where okay, people say both sides have their terrorists and their good people. But you, Inri and fucking Fallen-Griever are pretty much SUPPORTING the Israeli government for what they've done. They call Palestinian suicide bombers terrorists but by their VERY OWN DEFINITION, this corrupt zionist regime known as the Israeli government is committing the WORST type of terrorism that you'll ever achieve in this world - state terrorism. State terrorism is at least 100x worse than terrorism perpetuated by 3rd party groups and organizations such as Hamas and Al-Qaeda. If you're going to call these guys terrorists, then at least admit that the israeli government are a bunch of fucking state terrorists that are in the midst of committing an ethnic cleansing of monumental proportions.

As I stated various times earlier, MANY Jews including rabbis condemn the Israeli government for its crimes against humanity and state terrorism.

http://www.nkusa.org/ <--- A website dedicated to this.

I personally have Jewish friends who have all been to many Pro-Palestinian rallies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgvPwXa0Hfs&feature=related <--- If there are actually A LOT of Israelis who disapprove of this genocide, then you know that this is a one sided affair, and the state terrorist known as the israeli government must be condemned a millions time over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOjf9u4UaQ0 <--- Targeting 'military targets' eh? And don't give me a full of shit statement that this is an isolated incident.... NO! This type of event is WIDESPREAD throughout this whole crisis, and I can find a million videos, pictures and articles to prove this!

A Statement by a world acclaimed Rabbi:

(This speech was originally delivered in Durban, South Africa by Rabbi Y D Weiss)

May our words be pleasing to the Creator and cause His Great Name to be sanctified.

Assalaam Aleikhum:

The world stands aghast as the atrocities being committed by the Zionist regime in Gaza, becomes known in ever greater and shocking detail.

Mere words are insufficient to express the pain that all mankind feels at the plight of the Gaza and Palestinian people.

For over one hundred years, they have been subject to a carefully conceived plan, to drive them from their homes and their land.

Throughout their history, the Zionists have resorted to intimidation, war, ethnic cleansing and state—sponsored terrorism to achieve their goals.

This is, has been and continues to be, the criminal agenda of the Zionist movement. But among this movement’s greatest crimes, is that it has claimed to carry out these nefarious actions in the name of holiness, in the name of the Almighty, in the name of Judaism and the Jewish people !!

This is a wicked and monstrous lie !!

It is a desecration of our religion !!

Judaism forbids and rejects Zionism and the existence of the State of “Israel”. We have been expressly commanded by the Almighty that we are forbidden to have our own sovereignty in this heavenly decreed exile, we are also forbidden to rebel against any nation. Torah believing Jews, under the leadership of the most esteemed rabbis of the 20th century have always opposed and fought against Zionism and ultimately the State of “Israel”.

Unfortunately in recent years the Zionists have succeed in seducing and co—opting members of the religious community and some rabbis into support of not allowing the return of the rightful owners, the Palestinian people, to their land, by fear mongering, by appealing to their worst fears, that there is a religious conflict and that the Arabs always have had an ingrained hate for the Jews. Especially, they claim, that because of the many years of the existence of the State of “Israel”, if the Palestinians where to return to their land, they would massacre the Jews, may the Almighty protect us.

Anyone familiar with the ploys and techniques of the Zionist State is aware of this fact.

Before the advent of Zionism, Muslims and Christian, Arabs and Jews, lived peacefully together in the Holy Land, as in all the Muslim lands, — Ask your grandparents! — They remember those peaceful days! And in fact it is here the opportune time to thank all the Muslim countries for their extraordinary friendship, hospitality and safe haven that they have provided to the Jewish people throughout the ages!

The Zionists rely on the Bible, the Torah, for their imaginary right to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian people and to subjugate them. This is a pathetic joke! The Zionists have always been heretics and rejected all the fundamental tenets of our faith, and yet they have the nerve, the arrogance, the audacity, the chutzpa, to pretend to base their behavior on our holy Torah.

We know what our holy writings and our great rabbis have taught us — that we are forbidden to subjugate or oppress anyone or to desecrate the holiness of the Holy Land with paths of violence, ethnic cleansing, discrimination and military power. Our religion teaches justice. It teaches peace. It teaches compassion. In fact, the greatest and ultimate hope and prayer of the Jewish people is, that when the Messiah comes that then “Nation shall no longer lift up sword against nation, and they will make war no more.” All nations will serve God together in peace.

To the governments of the world, it is not through your support of the Zionist regime — the State of “Israel”, that the Jewish people are being helped! On the contrary, this tragic historical mistake has led to the killing of Arabs and Jews alike. The governments of the great powers, by supporting the State of “Israel” are not only harming the Palestinian people but they are also unwittingly contributing to the growth of hostility towards Jews worldwide!

To our Jewish brethren, we beg! Do not be intimidated by ruthless Zionist bullying and violence!! — Proclaim loudly and clearly your outrage, pain and sympathy for the people of Gaza and that those who show contempt for the Torah, the teachings of our rabbis, and disregard the ethical and moral basics of our faith, have no right to speak on behalf of the Jewish People or Judaism!

We must tell the world that self rule, sovereignty and ALL the rights of the Palestinian people, must be restored throughout historic Palestine! This is a requirement of Jewish ethics and values! Jewish justice demands the return of the Palestinian refugees to their homes, towns, villages and cities throughout Palestine! Tell the world, loudly and clearly, that you support Palestinian statehood over the ENTIRE Holy Land —— not despite your Jewish identity, but because of it.

To our Islamic brethren – let us speak up for the people of Gaza and please do not judge the Jewish faith or its people, on the basis of this passing lunacy of Zionism. The Jews have always been your friends and cousins. Do not allow your understandable anger to be directed at those who are innocent of wrongdoing, regardless of whether they reside in Occupied Palestine, Europe, or anywhere around the globe.

Together, people of all nations, may we be worthy, with God’s help, speedily and peacefully, without further suffering and bloodshed of anyone, be it Arab or Jew, to witness the peaceful end of the Zionist occupation over every inch of Palestine.

And may we yet merit to see, in the very near future, the revelation of the One God, over the entire world, with all mankind in His servitude, in joyous brotherhood.

AMEN

Let’s Proclaim Together:
FREE GAZA – FREE PALESTINE
JUDAISM YES ZIONISM NO !

So fuck all you pro-genocide people who force themselves to NOT see the truth in light of this genocide. Intentionally shielding and blinding yourself from the truth is absolutely pathetic and ignorant. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

They call Palestinian suicide bombers terrorists but by their VERY OWN DEFINITION, this corrupt zionist regime known as the Israeli government is committing the WORST type of terrorism that you'll ever achieve in this world - state terrorism. State terrorism is at least 100x worse than terrorism perpetuated by 3rd party groups and organizations such as Hamas and Al-Qaeda.

uhhm in one paragraph you say how hamas was democratically elected then you say that somehow hamas' terrorist actions are different than state terrorism????

I'm not acknowledging that Hamas is GOOD in anyway.. I see them as a 3rd party terrorist organization that has done a lot of wrong. BUT, they were democratically ELECTED in the first place after the West came in and forced their style of government onto the Palestinians. There is no denying either of these. Do I support this group? No... But do I think that they were justly elected through this forced style of democracy? Yes I do because its a FACT.

The difference between 3rd party groups that commit terrorist actions and state terrorism is vastly different due to the actual harm, and effect that state terrorism can do. State terrorism can perpetuate ethnic cleansing, something that we have seen over the past 60 years of the Palestinian people.

you're dumb as hell. hamas is the ruling government of a state.

hamas is to palestine as the israeli government/IDF are to israel. if what the israeli govt does is state terrorism than so is hamas.

Oh yeah? And what about before they were the ruling government of the state? Are you neglecting what happened over the past few decades? I'm not just talking about Hamas here... this is an ongoing crisis for the past 60 years with various different parties committing this... So think about who you call 'dumb as hell'

Well that's obviously different. Your entire thing about LEVELS OF TERRORISM is absurd. State terrorism is worse than "3rd party terrorism?" Really? Most 3rd party terrorists organizations receive funding from a state, so how are they any different than if the state itself was actually doing it?

The whole thing of saying WELL BOTH HAMAS AND ISRAEL COMMIT TERROR.. BUT ISRAELS IS SOMEHOW FUNDAMENTALLY WORSE is silly and it's just you blindly supporting Hamas because they're political Islam.

Well I'm sorry but that was my point - I am talking from the perspective of this crisis since its inauguration over 60 years ago. And yes there are DIFFERENT levels of terrorism - One of my undergrad thesis papers was on about that and my former professor who has TONS of knowledge on this sort of stuff (FAR greater than you or I) let me know about these different levels as well, to which I derived these from.

Yes state terrorism is ALMOST ALWAYS worse than terrorism committed by 3rd party organizations, especially since you have the strongest nation in the WORLD fully supporting Israeli with artillery and the most sophisticated equipment. And 3rd party terrorist groups don't 'mostly receive funding from a state'.. I don't know where you got this from. Its not 'most', it does happen on occasion but NOT most of the time... Certainly not.

I'm talking about STATE TERRORISM AS A WHOLE because of the actual consequences and RESULTS that they bring about compared to terrorism committed by 3rd party organizations.. The end result and consequences are vastly different! And stop putting words in my mouth. I already said that I DON'T support Hamas and what they're doing with the whole suicide bombing issue is CONTRARY to the teachings of Islam (In fact, that's one of the gravest sins in Islam), so 'blindly supporting Hamas because they're political Islam' is just a bunch of horse shit.

I think both sides are guilty of being retarded. Israel is the big kid with money so they look like "the bad guys" when they retaliate against attacks. But lets not pretend for one moment that just because the Palestenians are poor that they aren't as capable of the evil they claim the Israeli's do to them. Does not the bible teach in the Old Testament that you ought to love your brother and pity the ones who are lost? And a true follower of the Quran (seeing as most palestenians are Sunni) would find a way to peace without harming his fellow man. Both sides are guilty of many things and I think its bullshit that you all make Israel sound like the only culprit in the case.